Lying.

[XBlade]

Hey all,

Just wandering, as a TN character, I'll sometimes lie and sometimes not lie.

How do I do this, do I roll a bluff or a persuade roll? Or do I just plainly lie without any rolls.

Anyone help me on this?:\

[LynnJuniper]

Probably depends on the lie, how well people know you, weather or not he has any bad lying habits, how obvious he is (which would be effected by the bluff skill) etc.

Example: Lying about your name around a bunch of people that never met you, unless you're really bad at it, in my opinion should require no roll.

Example: If you're middle aged claiming to be 27 without an illusion, go for the bluff roll.

I hope this shed some light onto the situation. As with many other things on this server, faith is put in the players to use their common sense. I'll end with a quote from Dorg and say "if it doesn't feel right then it probably isn't". If you feel you need to be rolling, then roll.

As for technicalities: (Yeah I lied about the end thing..maybe I should've rolled bluff)

Bluff is for straight lying.
Persuade is sweet talking and flattery to get people to do what you want
Intimidation is causing fear or threatening to get people to do what you want.

[XBlade]

Thankyou! I'll probably pop some points in bluff so I can RP my character better! Makes things alot of clear!

[Pseudonym]

Example: If you're middle aged claiming to be 27 without an illusion, go for the bluff roll.

Dammit, I was doing this in RL all the time and now you tell me it's preposterous!?!?

[lonnarin]

Bluff is for straight lying.
Persuade is sweet talking and flattery to get people to do what you want
Intimidation is causing fear or threatening to get people to do what you want.

Good response.  A few more things on the nature of social skills.

Bluff need not always be a lie.  It could also be pretending not to be affected by something; Ie: Poker face.  It can be more widely categorized as misdirecting perception of the self or the situation.  In some instances I've seen it also used as a disguise check vs spot ala PnP, though perform checks via stage-acting can be used to this end as well.

Persuasion can be done without sweet talking or flattery as well.  You can always word the current situation to somebody to make them believe that you have the same goals, ask them kindly and point out the inevitable alternatives to the course you desire.  Persuasion does not always have to be positive to be effective; I'm sure a good many parents here have given into a toddler's tantrum at some point, or that annoying guy who follows you around the grocery store parking lot begging for a smoke.  You can persuade a paladin to lose faith and that his aims are futile, use it for haggling on prices to some extent and even state a legal case in court with it.  It has a pretty wide range of uses per situation.  Most of the time it's used to compromise towards common goals, but that need not always be the case.  People can get the raw end of a deal walking away from the diplomacy table, and often do.

Intimidate we covered in another thread talking about how it need not necessarily be fear itself as a factor.  You could detail a no-win situation showing the futility of a foe's goals, try to pull rank in a hierarchy like the town guard or a guild, point out the inevitable outcomes of not obeying your suggestion, etc.  In many cases it can overlap with Persuasion, though the key with intimidation is that you don't see eye to eye with the person, despite getting them to follow your will, and that they resent you to some extent for it afterwards.  Kind of like a "negative karma persuasion".  Drill seargants and football coaches often use intimidation skill as a means to boilster resolve as well.

[kuchida]

There has to be a limit to persuade though.. I mean you couldn't, or shouldn't, be able to talk a paladin or druid out of their core beliefs since that is so essential to who they are.. Not unless you had weeks or months of captivity to brainwash them at least..  At best a high persuade should make the target get "swept up in the moment" (like a good salesman, con man or motivational speaker would) but when they have time to consider they would fully realize and possibly even get angry about it..

[Eorendil]

There are limits and reasonable boundaries.  Even coercive magics can't make someone violate their instinct for self preservation against their will.  It all depends on the person you're dealing with as to how far you will get.  The trick with persuasion is knowing where people's limits are and walking them right up to and along that line without crossing it or getting them so familiar with that line that they no longer no where it is.. in a way.  The same thing can be held true regarding Intimidation.. take it too far.. make it absurd... and all the rolls in the world won't make it work.  

Rolls by themselves mean nothing without 1) situational facts and 2) RP.

[J-ser]

I have a TN character as well, and he can almost be described as a conman. Still, I try to stay away from rolls because A) the other player sees the roll and starts to metagame, knowing that you are lying and B) it can make someone feel like they have to go along with the lie, even if it is obvious.

"Lets go for a walk." *persuade check* 20+3=23.
I now think that there is something planned (mugging and kidnapping come to mind) and want to stay away, but the amazingly high roll makes me feel I should go. The facts behind the situation, and how well the character is playing off the lie should determine whether you believe him or not.

[lonnarin]

When I notice people blatantly metagamimg disbelief just because they see the roll, I play cruel mindgames with them, stating complete truths and making bluff checks after them.  Tell them stuff like "Player X isn't a Corathite" *bluff check*, then laugh my butt off when they walk up and randomly accuse that Toranite of worshipping Corath.

Honestly, most of the time its best just to lie in character, and only make the check if the person questions the validity of it with an opposed roll FIRST.  Let them take the initiative.  Only with close friends who have a feel for gaming with eachother, or against GM controlled NPCs do up-front bluff checks really work.

[XBlade]

I guess it's personal preference then, I think some players would enjoy RPing along with a bluff. I think Taric would if someone bluffed against him.