Learning Elven...RP excuses vs. RP reasons – Food for thought

[Pseudonym]

*was hanging out for ycleption to contribute*

According to Bill Bryson's book 'Mother Tongue', English has about 200,000 words in common use, German 180,000 and the Latin languages (Spanish, French and Italian) 100,000-120,000.

The simple reason that English has so many words is that it is very much a mongrel language, with influences from Celtic, Latin, Danish, German and French (among others). Maybe, just maybe, despite the long history of the elves, given how aloof and generally isolationist they are, they in fact have the smallest vocabulary? Granted number of words in common usage doesn't exactly correlate to how hard it is to learn but it seems logical there is some relationship?

[Dorganath]

The original post has some excellent points.  I'm going to keep my personal opinions on language approval out of this discussion (for now, anyway), but I do want to kind of underscore a point or two.  I will say though that people shouldn't really be seeking to learn a language because it's fashionable or "cool".

Earth has a few languages that have lots of nuances, complexities and so forth. They can take a long time to learn to the point where one can speak competently much less fluency.  None come to mind that rival the mythical qualities of Elvish, but it could be said that Russian (with something like 7 cases) and Chinese...and probably some others...have enough complexity and special cases to make them very difficult to learn...and yet, people do learn them who aren't native speakers.

Moving on, there's a very HUGE difference between learning to speak a language with competence and gaining mastery over said language.  The former can be done, with persistent instruction, in a few years (less, depending on the immersion level/intensity), while the latter takes many, many times longer. What is mastery?  Perfect inflection, grammar and a very deep knowledge and level of precision with a given language.  Even native speakers will struggle at this.

I firmly believe the "line" for approving ears should be the former.  Characters don't need to show mastery, only competence, to gain an ear. The length of time that takes depends on the language.

I could go on, but I won't.  Point is, just don't go seeking after a language for the cool factor.  Like everything else, it should be an IC and justified pursuit.  Likewise, those teaching the language should have a similar motivation to doing so.

[Drizzlin]

*was hanging out for ycleption to contribute*

According to Bill Bryson's book 'Mother Tongue', English has about 200,000 words in common use, German 180,000 and the Latin languages (Spanish, French and Italian) 100,000-120,000.

The simple reason that English has so many words is that it is very much a mongrel language, with influences from Celtic, Latin, Danish, German and French (among others). Maybe, just maybe, despite the long history of the elves, given how aloof and generally isolationist they are, they in fact have the smallest vocabulary? Granted number of words in common usage doesn't exactly correlate to how hard it is to learn but it seems logical there is some relationship?

What makes English so complicated is the meaning for each word as well as the complete lack of any logical use. I can't find the link but there is one that breaks things down. I will do my best below to try and show some of English's insane logic.

This is an old list from one of my language courses.

Can you pronounce the following without mistakes?
1)      The bandage was wound around the wound.
2)      The farm was used to produce produce.
3)      The dump was so full that it had to refuse more refuse.
4)      We must polish the Polish furniture.
5)      He could lead if he would get the lead out.
6)      The soldier decided to desert his dessert in the desert.
7)       Since there is no time like the present, he thought it was time to present the present.

8.      A bass was painted on the head of the bass drum.
9)      When shot at, the dove dove into the bushes.
10)     I did not object to the object.
11)     The insurance was invalid for the invalid.
12)     There was a row among the oarsmen about how to row.
13)     They were too close to the door to close it.
14)     The buck does funny things when the does are present.
15)     A seamstress and a sewer fell down into a sewer line.
16)     To help with planting, the farmer taught his sow to sow.
17)     The wind was too strong to wind the sail.

18.     After a number of injections my jaw got number.
19)     Upon seeing the tear in the painting I shed a tear.
20)     I had to subject the subject to a series of tests.
21)     How can I intimate this to my most intimate friend?

No other language in the world has such madness. This is what makes the English language so hard to grasp and even begin to master. It is also why native speakers can't even speak the language properly.

You could start a post on these things.

Cow vs Low
Rough vs Dough vs Cough
Two vs Too vs To
Their vs There
click and clique
 
I could go on and on. =P

[Filatus]

Eh.. English hard to grasp?

[miltonyorkcastle]

Aside from the words that have the same spelling but can mean different things depending on how they're pronounced or the context they're in, English is one of the harder languages because of the extreme use of idiom. Due to the wide usage of the language, the fact that it has absorbed so many cultures, and that modern English grammer has been hacked apart to simplify things (to make it a trade language), the language has become loaded with words and phrases that literally mean one thing, but are commonly used to refer to an entirely different meaning. For example, the phrase, "What's up?" means hello to most English speakers, though the literal translation is obviously different.

So when someone starts to learn English, not only do they have to learn the literal translations, they have to learn the common idioms, and then hope that they can maneuver any local idioms they encounter. While idiom exists in every language, English is notorious for containing far more idioms than any other language.

[Pseudonym]

I would imagine how you've described the English language's evolution is exactly right. That's what I meant, surely isolationist elves speaking their native tongue would have less adopted idioms and been hacked apart less given it's not a trade language?

All of which is slightly off topic (though I readily admit I am the guiltiest poster for making it so).

[Falonthas]

the reason, the real reason for everyone wanting to learn elven
is so everyone can talk behind Pseudonyms char's backs(just kidding)

elven isnt as prominent as it was a year ago, alot of those elves have permed or just wandered back into the woods

the humans who speak elven have half elven parents or are rains kids
so though it may seem like everyone speaks elven, its actually much less then you it would seem

[jrizz]

Driz you bring up a very good point about the fast learning capabilities of humans. And that should be kept in mind as it is one of the advantages of being human. But for me that brings up a deeper issue that may be at the heart of this discussion. Every race played on layo has to live with its pros and cons every race that is besides humans. Humans on Layo enjoy a very special place, you see they get all the racal benefits but get to ignore the one major drawback of the race, aging. We have addressed this before and the party line is that we wont force players to age out their PCs. So in effect we have removed the one major drawback/con of playing a human PC without balancing that out by removing any of the pros of being human such as quick to learn (which is a effect of having a short life span). Now you add to that the learning of other languages that are one of the benefits of playing non-humans and now you are giving humans even more pros without any cons.

[Acacea]

It seems you have your mind made up on the way something as simple as a language should be, rather than the facts on exactly how easy it is to learn a language.

Sorry to have given the impression that I just decided something should be a certain way and started preaching it to everyone. When I have never seen something represented to me, I ask, and if the people I am asking don't have a clear idea, I give my opinion and wait for their decision. In this case, I simply explained it as it has been represented to me in my entire time here on Layonara, since my character first began learning the elven language. One of her thing has been languages for a long time - she didn't start out with any extras but I wrote in her affinity for them and forced studies into the basic building blocks of language that enhanced it. With that and her high perform skill, she can parrot just about anything said to her, back at someone, even if she is not actually fluent in the language. It makes things interesting, as rather than bother learning to be fluent in dwarven, she asked a very long time ago how to say some very nasty dwarven insults, practiced them until they were perfect, and uses them at will. She may not know how to ask where the restroom is, but she can sure get herself killed in a dwarven stronghold, and make her last request a pint of ale.

Despite this, the elven language was always represented to me as something not so much complicated like quantum physics, but rather deep and with multiple shades of meaning that were considered difficult for other races to grasp in a short time. I disagree with the statement that fifty years spent for a human is the equivalent to speaking like an eight year old and think it is overcomplicating it... the statements I made were more akin to the common fact of "there is always more to learn." I got the ear after a lot of IG RP to that effect, from a lot of different elven teachers. Several months to a RL year later she was exploring what was beyond the surface and expressing specifics and shades of meaning that don't translate well, and I remember her  being told IC that now she was beginning to learn. Whenever more information is asked on a submission requesting elven, the complexity and variations of the language is usually mentioned. I didn't just decide it was that way, I was simply representing it as it was represented to me. If that representation is incorrect, it doesn't make things much different for me, as I was only looking for compromises to ensure that it was understood that it was still achievable by anyone despite that.

It is easy to make the argument as well that not only are the humans of course more adaptable and quicker to pick up things than elves, it is the human languages that are richer, because while elven generations are long, that actually makes them less prone to detectable change. It takes MUCH longer for the elven language to have any significant changes, whereas the Common tongue was once just a polyglot grunt and gesture system, now a codified common tongue of a fallen empire with words pulled from many languages and thus really more of a hacked apart and glued together system. Humans have less time, but with all their generations going by in a blink, have their skills adapt and evolve much faster, making it more difficult for an elf to keep up with the human tongue than a whole line of humans to keep up with the elven, once they have managed to get over the obstacle of learning it in the first place. It is an obstacle, though, as I have always understood it. Being too stupid or unable to learn was not the obstacle I was referring to, though, just the difference between sailing over an ocean and actually seeing what's under the surface.

I also think the type of elf would make a difference in the way they speak their native tongue, and how it compares to the way a human would, but that is not something that has specifically ever been explained or shown to me, so guesses on that would be purely theory. And of course, subraces or not, they're still elven, so it would probably just be the same thing targeted at a different area. Still, I can see high elves being much more difficult to please linguistically speaking than a wood elf. Every language has its masters.

[ycleption]

The simple reason that English has so many words is that it is very much a mongrel language, with influences from Celtic, Latin, Danish, German and French (among others). Maybe, just maybe, despite the long history of the elves, given how aloof and generally isolationist they are, they in fact have the smallest vocabulary? Granted number of words in common usage doesn't exactly correlate to how hard it is to learn but it seems logical there is some relationship?

English is somewhat of an anomaly in many ways; at least in theoretical ivory tower conceptions, most pidgins and creoles tend to have simple (i.e. regular) grammar, more consistent phonemic writing systems, and relatively small lexicons... Of course, ask a dozen linguists about how languages develop in isolation as opposed to in commerce with other languages and you will probably get a dozen different answers.  

What makes English so complicated is the meaning for each word as well as the complete lack of any logical use.

Yes, your point is true, but that really has more to do with English orthography than the actual language. Although to a certain extent it reflects the various influences of English, remember that standardized spelling is a relatively recent invention. English certainly has a lot of inconsistencies, (don't get me started on preposition use) that undoubtedly affect the difficulty people have learning the language, I'm just not sure that the one you cite is a good example within this discussion.

To give an example of how it could be considerably more difficult to learn, I can imagine an Elven language with a strong vein of idioms based in nature; in order to truly get the nuances of the language, one would have to know the names and associations of Layonaran flora and fauna, not only would "rose" be a color, it would also be a mood (in the same way as English retains medieval medicine's "sanguine" or "melancholy") , a very specific time of year, a euphemism for something not mentioned in polite company, an article of clothing, etc. etc.

I'm sure that one can imagine any number of ways an elf's long life span and patient nature could be used to create a language: maybe something where any concept must be expressed in three ways to create a complete sentence... maybe, express it directly, give a historical comparison, and then express it abstractly in philosophical terms...

I dunno, I'm just trying to throw things out there that are a bit more fantastic than the difference between English and Spanish.

[Drizzlin]

Aside from the words that have the same spelling but can mean different things depending on how they're pronounced or the context they're in, English is one of the harder languages because of the extreme use of idiom. Due to the wide usage of the language, the fact that it has absorbed so many cultures, and that modern English grammer has been hacked apart to simplify things (to make it a trade language), the language has become loaded with words and phrases that literally mean one thing, but are commonly used to refer to an entirely different meaning. For example, the phrase, "What's up?" means hello to most English speakers, though the literal translation is obviously different.

So when someone starts to learn English, not only do they have to learn the literal translations, they have to learn the common idioms, and then hope that they can maneuver any local idioms they encounter. While idiom exists in every language, English is notorious for containing far more idioms than any other language.

This is exactly one of the largest pain in the rumps. The biggest problem however is the different pronounciations for words spelt almost identicle.

dough vs rough vs through
row vs bow (like to take a bow) vs bow (to bend)
hose (garden hose) vs Lose (can't find)
Buick (car) vs Quick (fast)

Again there are SOO many of these! hehe

For the life of me I can't remember what this is called when words are almost spelt identical but sound completely different. Any english majors out there know?

[Drizzlin]

Driz you bring up a very good point about the fast learning capabilities of humans. And that should be kept in mind as it is one of the advantages of being human. But for me that brings up a deeper issue that may be at the heart of this discussion. Every race played on layo has to live with its pros and cons every race that is besides humans. Humans on Layo enjoy a very special place, you see they get all the racal benefits but get to ignore the one major drawback of the race, aging. We have addressed this before and the party line is that we wont force players to age out their PCs. So in effect we have removed the one major drawback/con of playing a human PC without balancing that out by removing any of the pros of being human such as quick to learn (which is a effect of having a short life span). Now you add to that the learning of other languages that are one of the benefits of playing non-humans and now you are giving humans even more pros without any cons.

I agree completely, however as a player of a dark elf I still get my dark vision, spell resistance, +2 dex, +2 charisma, +2 intel, darkness at will, and the other perks. Of course I pay a +2 ecl.

Elves have search used at all times with no penalties, +2 dex, ultravison. Immunities to magic sleep effects, +2 racial saving throw vs enchachantment effects, low light vision, +2 racial bonus to listen, search, spot, and free weapon proficienies (bow, long swords, rapier, longbow, shortbow).

I can list as many advantages for the other races as well, and keep in mind that the standard races are the same ECL as humans. All of the other races of course get to speak common and their native languages for free, while a human has to use up one of their intel bonuses to have an extra language.

So while I agree humans don't "age or die" in layonara, it hardly makes them have some kind of huge advantage when compared to the the racial bonuses other classes get.

There is also the point that in pnp campains I have played in, the aging factor doesn't play into account much there either. Everyone gets to level 12ish, die or whatever happens without "aging". Yes I have played in campains that we enforced "agining" but due to that no one played a human =P

[Drizzlin]

Yes, your point is true, but that really has more to do with English orthography than the actual language. Although to a certain extent it reflects the various influences of English, remember that standardized spelling is a relatively recent invention. English certainly has a lot of inconsistencies, (don't get me started on preposition use) that undoubtedly affect the difficulty people have learning the language, I'm just not sure that the one you cite is a good example within this discussion.

While you are right, as Dorg said above, do you have to know every single meaning to the word "rose" to be able to speak a language and be able to communcate efficently?

I can speak spanish and japanese, but when i'm speaking with someone, especially when it is their native language, they are always using words I do not know or understand the complete meaning too. That doesn't however mean we are not communicating in their native tongue. The reasons I cited what I did had to do with someone's response to the english language and it's difficulty to learn.

[Drizzlin]

Despite this, the elven language was always represented to me as something not so much complicated like quantum physics, but rather deep and with multiple shades of meaning that were considered difficult for other races to grasp in a short time. I disagree with the statement that fifty years spent for a human is the equivalent to speaking like an eight year old and think it is overcomplicating it... the statements I made were more akin to the common fact of "there is always more to learn."

I didn't create the races or the fantasy worlds we play in. This is how the writers and creaters of the D&D settings created the races and explain them. I didn't come up with the statement that 30 years spent for a elf is equivalent to speaking like an eight year old human and think it is overcomplicated.

In fact that little part came from the book, Wind Walker, by Elaine Cunningham that I happen to be reading right now and it just so happened to bring up that point. The book is a Forgotten Realms book written about Drow and follows D&D rules and settings for the races. Sure somethings are changed here and there, just at they are in the world of Layonara.  

Countless books that are the bases of D&D and the history of the races touch on this point all the time. The fact that elves view time completely different that humans, yet in the same manner.

We can only imagine what it would mean to live 800 years, but if we did it wouldn't be much different to a human who lives for 80 years. Ten years would pass the same as 100. It is proportional.

I am a fan of D&D and fantasy settings. I do more than just play here on layonara and NWN. I spend a lot of time reading novels (Well, at least before I started trying to be a doctor =P) and absorbing the history and lore of the D&D setting. Layonara, within NWN, is based on D&D with changes made by the staff to make it as much as their own as possible.

Elves take longer to learn what a human can learn. Simply put it is because they have 800 years to learn it, where as a human has roughly 80. If I gave my kid a week to clean his room, he would take a week. Not because he is lazy, but simply because that is the time he has to learn it. There is no rush or sense of urgency.

Can elves learn faster? That could be debated and there are always exceptions to the rules, but it would be just that and rare. Elves are not in a rush or hurry to do things, they have time. However if you shortened their life spawn from 800 to 80 years, they would be learning exactly the same amount as the human did in the same amount of time. That is the point of time being propotional and relative to how much you have.

[Pseudonym]

Elves are the living embodiment of Parkinson's Law??!!?

*happily awaits ... ummmm ... lemme think, [strike]ycleption[/strike] .. nah, bedtime for her .. ummm .. Acacea's reply*

[Acacea]

I wasn't really trying to debate, nor to defend an argument... it feels like there's some point counter point expectation here which wasn't really what I was doing. My first post explained it the way it had been represented to me, and my entire second post explained that, attempting to say that I wasn't just stating my personal opinion that I was going to argue for until the end of time based on some thing I read one time or just liked the idea of... just representing it as it had been explained to me for the purposes of Layonara. That's it. I didn't know there was so much argument about it, because that's how it has always been explained to me here and was something I could easily pass on in the same manner. My third [strike]and last[/strike] post is now to clarify that again...

I made the mistake of adding my personal disagreement with the mental eight year old thing to illustrate that I stood somewhere between the crowd waving the "it's just like any other language or even simpler" flag, and the one saying "elves learn it in centuries so a human will never be more than a ten year old."  To the former I would personally say that elven is not a normal mundane language in the way that someone learns German or Spanish or Japanese and do we have to grind everything down to real life terms all the time when we are talking magical species 'cause even when you point to book languages they're still written by humans and is it really more fun to just make human equivalents only centuries ahead?* And to the latter I would say that I don't see any elven level 20 spells... Just 700 year old level 9 spell casters, and 60 year old human level 9 spellcasters. Never learning is a bit much for me based on simple things like that alone. Clearly they can learn.

However, those are personal stances. Everything I attempted to explain above was, as I said, simply how things have been represented to me on Layonara. If they are incorrect, okay, I don't really care, as long as it is corrected by something other than a personal opinion or a sourcebook or something and done in a manner that doesn't make even less sense. It's not like I was trying to lock down the standards and put the elven ear away in a safe. What did I really even say in my first post?

That I'm against lengthening the time requirement by a stupid amount, even if it was stated that it would take a very long time to learn... that I do think that it would help to be more conscious of an elf's reasons for teaching a non-elf (or a dwarf a non-dwarf, etc) - again, not saying it should never happen...even in my silly example showed only reluctance and eventual agreement and not refusal (see thread title - Rp reasons vs RP excuses)...  I didn't even say they should all be arrogant jerks; my silly example was a human-lover! I also clarified again in my second post the difference in mere competence and mastery (I stated that a few months to a RL year after she acquired the ear - for budding competence after a few months' IG RP and no cdt! - that she was told by an elf that she was finally beginning to learn - it's a difference in perspective and I said high elves were more likely to be that way because every language has its uppity masters) which Dorg pretty much said clearly and I didn't catch his post. Which part of what it was really about was the part so debate worthy, really...? I can be for requiring a RL year too, if that's any better, I guess. Being conscious that it's not a human-created language and hard to compare, and that it's unlikely to be taught seemed like okay compromises!


To clarify one more thing as I'm not sure it was read correctly...

I disagree with the statement that fifty years spent for a human is the equivalent to speaking like an eight year old and think it is overcomplicating it...

I was not referring to a year exchange between elf and human, but rather the statement made earlier saying that even if a human spent fifty years absorbed in learning the elven language, he'd be talking like an eight year old to elven society. Perhaps you read it correctly, perhaps not, but I was uncertain when reading your response if you had and felt it was worth clarifying.

Since I started out this post with no intention to include personal opinion, but did anyway, I will just flag all my future posts in any thread with different marks stating that I am either A, giving a personal opinion with nothing to do with anything other than what I think and will happily debate as I don't mind better ideas, and B, giving the opinion of others that has been in turn given to me, that I am not really debating about because it's something I was told.** Most of this was B because that's what I'm supposed to say. "A" snuck in there because he's a loudmouth.

*In one virtual breath, too. With no punctuation. I might even leave out the spaces. Eat that!



**I will also begin flagging*** to show when comments are made in seriousness.


*** (WTB flag.)

[bobby1361]

english is the worlds second language.
The first is chinese.
anyway, Elvish should take along time i should think.
(my post seems small and pathetic compared to yorus)

[EdTheKet]

Moving on, there's a very HUGE difference between learning to speak a language with competence and gaining mastery over said language. The former can be done, with persistent instruction, in a few years (less, depending on the immersion level/intensity), while the latter takes many, many times longer. What is mastery? Perfect inflection, grammar and a very deep knowledge and level of precision with a given language. Even native speakers will struggle at this.

I firmly believe the "line" for approving ears should be the former. Characters don't need to show mastery, only competence, to gain an ear. The length of time that takes depends on the language.

I could go on, but I won't. Point is, just don't go seeking after a language for the cool factor. Like everything else, it should be an IC and justified pursuit. Likewise, those teaching the language should have a similar motivation to doing so.

Nothing to add there (I could, but I won't


In any case, I do want to point out the nuances and connotations of the elvish language which you cannot learn in a few years, look at it like an art. Sure, it's easy to grab a brush and some paint and paint a house with a tree next to it on some piece of paper :

/ \\    O
|_|    |

But it is far from the painting of a house in a forest by Van Gogh.
This is an analogy to the mastery part that Dorganath refers to. Sure you can draw a house (i.e. speak elven) but you cannot -draw- a house.

Also please bear in mind that this can never be adequately displayed by a computer program (the language ear) that just converts letters or groups of letters into words.

[Drizzlin]

I made the mistake of adding my personal disagreement with the mental eight year old thing to illustrate that I stood somewhere between the crowd waving the "it's just like any other language or even simpler" flag, and the one saying "elves learn it in centuries so a human will never be more than a ten year old."  To the former I would personally say that elven is not a normal mundane language in the way that someone learns German or Spanish or Japanese and do we have to grind everything down to real life terms all the time when we are talking magical species 'cause even when you point to book languages they're still written by humans and is it really more fun to just make human equivalents only centuries ahead?*


**I will also begin flagging*** to show when comments are made in seriousness.


*** (WTB flag.)[/SIZE][/CENTER]

Well, I completely understand where you are coming from and while my responses were off of your posts and "directed" at you, they were more to address your opinions to both you and the people reading the post. For me, math and languages are something I have studied in my life and when compared to the game and the rules, well real life does take into consideration. The game itself is based off of the very same rules and limits that exist in real life. Sure things are a bit different due to magic and the imagination, but for the most part the game rules are based off real life. Does that make it any less enjoyable? No, not for me. Does it make the game any less "magical"? Not for me. It makes the game even more enjoyable personally.

In the military I was a cryptologist and spent the better part of my days not only copying, but deciphering coded messages, sometimes written in other languages. It is not hard to do once you konw what to look for. In fact you can open up a sunday paper and find all kinds of puzzles that deal with decoding some kind of message. Language's have patterns that repeat over and over. The more you have of that lanuage the easier it becomes to recognize the patterns. It is how we deciphered such things as ancient egyption hieroglyphics, a lanuguage that no one speaks today. Are we 100% accurate? No.

I can go on and on about how Math is the universal language and can be used to communicate at any level. It starts with the simple binary system we use with computers =P.  

This is why it is so easy to relate real life languages to any "made up magical" ones in a game. Could the dms just say "well it is magical and beyond your understanding"? Sure, but then what guidelines and rules would be thrown out the window next in place of common sense? That is what makes the game like D&D great, it is real life with a twist and in a fantasy setting. We can play it and relate to it because it is for the most part bound by the same laws (i mean the laws of physics and science for the most part) from the world we live in. This is also what helps keep the game more simple.

I personly do not feel we are "gridning everything down to real life terms" when it comes to the game because I look at is as if we use real life terms to create the game and as a reference. I am sure that when you rp your character and come across an sick person you don't need LORE to break down the "magical" anatomy of an elf. I am willing to bet you simply reference what we know in real life about human anatomy and the workings of the human body.

I have yet to see some argument about how elves have "magical bones" and instead of a femur they have some kind of tree bone without bonemarrow. Because of the magical differences there is speculation that there is no need to stabalize the bleeding due to the open wound where the bone is sticking out, because infections are not airborne in the "magical" setting.

While I know this is a bit far fetched, my point is that I am willing to bet you use real life human equivalents all the time in game and don't even realize it. Why are languages being over complicated? Why not keep them simple and in line with the same rules and boundries that exist for them within real life, so that we can focus on other things inside the game that make it so much more enjoyable? Like a great story, rp fun and experiences with other people. Instead of trying to create some brand new anatomy and physiology for every single species, we can just stick to what we use in real life and change various races here and there as needed.


For those reading, I appologize if the post has gone a bit off topic, all though I peronsally feel it is still on topic and addressing the point about the difficulty of learning a language, which was brought up in this post. I also agree that an elf would hold their language dear and shouldn't be out teaching it to everyone, nor would they. However, if they did, it wouldn't be any more difficult to learn than any other language. Given they had a teacher and dedicated time to learning it.

I am also in complete agreement that learning a language and speaking it is hardly the same as mastering a language. I can speak english, japanese and spanish. I have studied all three of them in school, but I far from mastering any of then. I would say 99% of the people never master their own languages. The other 1% go earn PHDs in their respective language if they want to master them.

On a final note, I didn't use a spell check so forgive me if I personally mutilated the english language some! =) I am skilled at that!

[Acacea]

That's the thing though, you know? I completely, utterly despise the cop-out answer of "it's magic, you don't understand." I could go on there but I won't, because anyone who has quested with me or talked to me or read even a few of my posts knows I detest people simply 'deciding' that something is mystical and magical and therefore completely strange and alien. In a magical world, the magical is not alien, therefore nothing is ever really impossible save a direct hand by the gods themselves. You may not be good enough to understand, but there should be a reason. Just because it is a fantasy world doesn't mean things don't make sense. They just have their own sense.

Continuing. The fact that I dislike that very strongly is why in my previous posts I used words like "compromise" and phrases like "fall in the middle between..." to describe my position in this discussion (and why there was another, opposite half to the part quoted).

Following from that, it explains why I am still a bit baffled by the sort of slew of responses towards pretty much every comment I make, despite the context or explanations... I guess it's the difference in competence and mastery, as I failed english and perhaps just can't make myself very clear (or maybe they are worth the full responses! I just feel very lazy about my replying and so every time I get one it's like "oh, hey...yo... what?").

Anyway. Just because I don't think magic should ever be used as a cop-out, does not mean it does not add another level and layer of fantasy worlds than we have. The reason I liked ycleption's post was because of the 'I'm just trying to throw things out there that are a bit more fantastic than the difference between English and Spanish.' Arguing constantly for the same real life equivalents that already exist everywhere is really boring for me. I like acknowledging that this is a fantasy world and it is possible for something to make sense in a way that humans would not expect, be familiar with, or handle with automatic ease. Impossible? Never, that is the genius (downfall?) of humanity and the reason that wizards exist. I don't like GM "I win cards" or "plot buttons" and when I feel that my character or someone else's character has been shafted by them I say so directly... you can ask any GM that I've argued with how long my PMs are. I have joyfully gotten my character and friends in a lot of trouble and in dire situations through their own fault before, but when something happens just because the man behind the curtain wants it to without a logical explanation, I object. Challenges and surmountable obstacles are different, even if done in a way not expected.

If every single one of your posts was really just to deny the possibility that it is more challenging than most others because of its unique nature, which was brought up in a side comment in addressing all the other things that you do agree with, wow. I think I may bow out! The specific issue doesn't matter as much to me, because if the team steps up with either side in favor then I will just shrug and still be a half step away instead of a full step, and still think one side or another is a bit much. I just don't like the driving force behind the argument - that everything must be how it is here. Not that real life is boring - it is the more interesting of the two by far - but Layonara is not real. That shouldn't be an excuse for plot buttons (as most wizards would say, you cannot change the fundamental physics of the universe), but we have two languages that are not simply 'more challenging' or 'difficult' to learn, but actually impossible to ever even hope of grasping without unique circumstances. Considering elven is close in origins if not a derivative of one of those, I would generally assume that saying "it is a challenging language for most human minds to take on, but let's not make the requirements much stricter and just be conscious of its nature" seemed like...not that big of a deal nor out of the realm of possibility. My halfling speaks elven very well and she tried to learn the impossible ones for a long time (one of them with teachers), refusing to believe that any language was impossible to grasp due to its nature, because if it is spoken, then it can be understood. If it is written it can be translated. For many of the same reasons that were quoted back at me, that's how she thought. She was just wrong - that's it. She can't learn. Like all impossibilities, however, there are always exceptions and solutions. When she finally admitted the impossibility of learning under normal circumstances, she began seeking out extraordinary ones. Maybe she'll manage someday. Few things are impossible, but sometimes they do throw you a curve ball.

Regarding the internal structure, you would actually think that a cut up elf would look a lot different from a cut up human because of the difference in creators, if that story is true... Not that the basic principle of a functioning structure does not apply, but still, different. I don't think they are any different here in Layo, but you would think, I mean! Unless they shared notes, or if one ever ascends to a creator race there ends up being a specific formula which one must follow to have their race function. Which would make sense. It is also not that surprising that elves and humans shouldn't be able to mate... what is surprising is that Aeridin had anything to do with their ability to do so, despite Prunilla being the fertility goddess (I guess she was too practical to see the merit in going out of her way to make orcs mothers of elven babies and such things... why do tall people over-complicate things all the time?) ... and why he bothered in the first place!

Thanks for your comments, I understand the idea even if I disagree with the extent to which they should apply. They just seemed a bit... I dunno. Driven with full effort against a vague neutrality vote. Best I can do now is just go, "Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep." to most of the points quoted back at me, and then say, "So?" at the end.

As a note, debate threads by their very nature are what over-complicate simple subjects. Simply describing a language as having unique challenges does not, particularly when you add no additional requirements to it save being more conscious of roleplaying it.

As another note, for many of the reasons quoted at me, I dislike the INT requirement on languages and have often wished for a way around them! Like having a "Linguist" feat that requires 14-16 INT or something and gets another slot Or an additional slot for every 20 ranks of lore, or something. Meh!