Learning Elven...RP excuses vs. RP reasons – Food for thought

[Drizzlin]

Following from that, it explains why I am still a bit baffled by the sort of slew of responses towards pretty much every comment I make, despite the context or explanations... I guess it's the difference in competence and mastery, as I failed english and perhaps just can't make myself very clear (or maybe they are worth the full responses! I just feel very lazy about my replying and so every time I get one it's like "oh, hey...yo... what?").

For that I appologize. Through the keyboard and monitor you loose the tone in which someone is communicating. I tend to try and get as much as I can into a post on a forum to be clear because you never know how the person on the other end is interpreting what you are typing. In real life you can gage their understanding of the conversation with the physical interaction.

If every single one of your posts was really just to deny the possibility that it is more challenging than most others because of its unique nature, which was brought up in a side comment in addressing all the other things that you do agree with, wow. I think I may bow out!

I do not deny the level of dificulity and in fact mentioned above that the difficulity of learning a new langauge is strongly dependent upon the one you currently speak, and the age at which you try to learn a new one. Of course that is what brought up how hard some languages can be no matter what, like english.

I just don't like the driving force behind the argument - that everything must be how it is here. Not that real life is boring - it is the more interesting of the two by far - but Layonara is not real.

Fair enough.

Considering elven is close in origins if not a derivative of one of those, I would generally assume that saying "it is a challenging language for most human minds to take on, but let's not make the requirements much stricter and just be conscious of its nature" seemed like...not that big of a deal nor out of the realm of possibility.

This is one of the main reasons I stepped in and really started a lot of this discussion. By saying a something is more challenging for a human to learn vs other races, you completely negate the very racial advantages of a human. The rules are there in both layonara LORE and in any D&D setting. Humans grasp concepts, such as languages, skills, and magic easier and at an accelerated rate when compared to the other races. Here is the link to the discription of humans on LORE.


LORE: Human

They are given Skilled and Quick to Master to show their ability to learn more and grasp concepts and skills faster than other races. It is ok that you don't agree with it and I am not going to beat that dead horse anymore, I promise!

Regarding the internal structure, you would actually think that a cut up elf would look a lot different from a cut up human because of the difference in creators, if that story is true... Not that the basic principle of a functioning structure does not apply, but still, different. I don't think they are any different here in Layo, but you would think, I mean! Unless they shared notes, or if one ever ascends to a creator race there ends up being a specific formula which one must follow to have their race function. Which would make sense. It is also not that surprising that elves and humans shouldn't be able to mate...

My hands shake as I simply pass on responding to this!!! O.o  As a young Scientist (I say young because I never earned a PHD and instead took the route of medchool) who has done graduate level research in the fields of BioChemistry and mamalian physiology I have viewpoints of a scientist. This is better left for another post!

Thanks for your comments, I understand the idea even if I disagree with the extent to which they should apply. They just seemed a bit... I dunno. Driven with full effort against a vague neutrality vote. Best I can do now is just go, "Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep." to most of the points quoted back at me, and then say, "So?" at the end.

Acacea,

I have always looked up to you in the community and your RPing in game. You are top notch and have put a lot of time and energy into the world of Layonara. I personally appreicate and want to thank you for all you have done for the community. I hope I didn't drive you batty with this conversation.

[EdTheKet]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand breathe!

Regarding the internal structure, you would actually think that a cut up elf would look a lot different from a cut up human because of the difference in creators, if that story is true...

No comment!

Not that the basic principle of a functioning structure does not apply, but still, different. I don't think they are any different here in Layo, but you would think, I mean! Unless they shared notes, or if one ever ascends to a creator race there ends up being a specific formula which one must follow to have their race function. Which would make sense.

No comment here either!!

It is also not that surprising that elves and humans shouldn't be able to mate... what is surprising is that Aeridin had anything to do with their ability to do so, despite Prunilla being the fertility goddess (I guess she was too practical to see the merit in going out of her way to make orcs mothers of elven babies and such things... why do tall people over-complicate things all the time?) ... and why he bothered in the first place!

One comment here then: look at it as Aeridin putting a stop to it

And tall people over complicate things, because their heads are further away from the ground, so there's less oxygen on their breathing level

[Pseudonym]

Isn't Harlas like 6' 8"? Explains a lot.

[Harlas Ravelkione]

HEY!

* Bumps his index finger against Pseud's chest. *

Isn't Harlas like 6' 8"? Explains a lot.

[Acacea]

Isn't Harlas like 6' 8"? Explains a lot.

Har!

My hands shake as I simply pass on responding to this!!!

I thought they might Like I said, I am pretty sure they don't! I was only toying with the notion that while you would naturally still have an x shaped bone that is thus called z and some thing thing that serves a purpose, because you need one to survive and if you have one then its called y, if they were made by completely different  creator races then it is possible things might be... um... rearranged or with different...tools? Clearly if you have something that is intaking oxygen and something that gets rid of waste (though perhaps the difference is that elves have none, they seem to think so!), so of course it won't be a completely alien piece of machinery... more, I just wonder what two completely different tinkerers would do with the same parts. You can PM me your outrage as I was only pondering if it were a logical thought process

This is one of the main reasons I stepped in and really started a lot of this discussion. By saying a something is more challenging for a human to learn vs other races, you completely negate the very racial advantages of a human.

Oh, well, actually, I didn't mean humans in particular. That was misleading, I should have simply typed "non-elves." If I meant humans only, I probably would not have used my character as an example, and just the closest human I was familiar with...since mine is a halfling. Humans are naturally adaptable and "quick to master" as the feat goes, which is one of the primary reasons I disagreed with the notion that even if a human devoted half a century to the language, he'd still be the equivalent to an eight year old. If he can learn level 9 spells with the equations of the cosmos, I think he can probably learn a language that is considered "difficult" as opposed to "mundane" even if it does provide additional challenges. Humans (and a lot of halflings) are like pests in that they are constantly finding ways to circumvent things that should be difficult. It does not negate the initial challenge, just requires either extra effort or a different approach.

As for driving me batty with the conversation, not really, I was just having trouble responding because I have a lot easier time arguing when I am on the opposite end instead of "well, I agree, sort of, except for the second sentence in the last line,"  or, "Well I agree with basically everything that you said, I just don't agree with its further application..." That always makes things hard. Since I'm obviously still replying to fix some understanding, I obviously have the clarification complex also, which tends to drag out simple concepts for additional weeks, months, and decades over the correction of one line concepts. I was not implying that you were over-complicating the whole thing (more we), but more appreciating the absurdity in either of us saying "what is so complicated about this?" when most everyone agreed on the initial post and it was sort of a side-branch that we spent discussing for the rest of the thread...

One comment here then: look at it as Aeridin putting a stop to it

Bah! He ruins everything.

[EdTheKet]

Did somebody ever tell you guys that you all type too much?

[Falonthas]

see below reason

[Acacea]

Did somebody ever tell you guys that you all type too much?

Never. Maybe once or twice. Sometimes. Yes.

[Drizzlin]

Did somebody ever tell you guys that you all type too much?

The crazy part is I type about 90 words a minute. So while I type to much, at least I don't spend a lot of time doing it!!! The speed at which I type, combined with my horde spelling, sometimes make for some interesting reads!

If you want to know where I learned to type so fast...copying code in the Navy. =P

[Crizzan]

I've read a lot of emotion in this thread. I'm really not trying to add to that. As one of my students would say (I tutor English, writing skills, math, and philosophy), "take a chill pill."

In RP terms, elven is neither easier nor harder to learn than any other languages. Why do I say that? It requires one language slot. If it were harder to learn, it would require more.

Looking at some of the salient points made:
You could expect elven to be a fairly rigid, slow changing language. Although as Eskimo has twelve different words for snow, you could expect elven to have many different words for any one thing with the proper word so completely describing that thing that a sentence (or paragraph) is just that one word, it would be possible to communicate clearly using the base word and descriptors.
On the other hand, elven would probably not have words for recent inventions like the crossbow. They might (or might not) have a word for a bow, since that has been around longer, but nuances for shortbow or longbow might be waiting to see if the new-fangled gadget hangs around long enough to merit creating a word. You are more likely to need a paragraph to describe such things or accepted combinations of words (cf. German plattenspieler, lit. plate player for phonograh).
This has nothing to do with how hard it is to learn. As for taking a year to learn to communicate in a language, I attended a thirty day course in German that allowed me to converse albeit slowly and with requests for explanations. I was not able to converse well until after a few months in Germany, but I was never truly fluent even after ten years there. Since returning to the states and conversing almost entirely in English, I have forgotten most of my German (and Arabic, Greek, and Italian) although I can pick it up soon after entering a conversation with someone that speaks it.
For those that wonder, many countries have language institutes that study not only languages but also how hard it is to learn languages. Hands down, all agree that English is the most difficult to learn. Our grammar has many exceptions, but the worst part is that the language is so dynamic that words change meanings in mere decades and new words are added daily. Does anyone remember when prevent meant primarily "to prepare an opening to allow or force escape"? I doubt anyone on this forum was alive in the fifteenth century.
A static or semi-rigid language, on the other hand, is relatively easy to learn. Rules are firmly established, words do not change meanings, and the syntax follows a fixed pattern. The only difficulty can be if your native tongue (like English) is consonant defined, context sensitive, and structure flexible, but the language you are attempting is tonal and structure defined. Your ear must be trained in addition to the memorization and syntax changes.

All that said, written elven should, like Koine Greek, be easier to learn than written other languages. Why? It would be rigid enough that a thousand year old scroll would read the same as one written yesterday. Different words for the same thing in different states (of existence) would have the same roots, probably with different prefixes, suffixes, or tonal markings. Very few words would change, so once learned, always known. Try reading Middle English today.

By the way, I am considered fluent in English. I cannot say that for other languages. If you ever want to get into a really stirring discussion about the differences between the optative and subjunctive cases, you may drop me a note. Of course, that implies that you might.

[ycleption]

@Crizzan
I agree with what you are saying about languages in our world, but I think you are making a lot of assumptions about how that translates into a fantasy universe.
That thirty day course you took may have been effective, but I'm sure it had a lot of research about learning a language behind it, as opposed to the "hey, you speak language x, will you teach it to me?" that happens in game. As well, English is a germanic language, so it's not quite as difficult to grasp. If you had tried to learn a tonal language like Vietnamese or something, you might have had more difficulty; if you had learned something like Zulu, that uses both tonal patterns and click consonants, it may have been much more difficult. These are just a few examples of the sounds in languages that English speakers have a difficult time wrapping their head around from RL, but in fantasy we can push things further. There are so so so many ways that communication can be achieved, (in the sounds, in the grammar,in the syntax, in the morphology, in the lexicon, etc) why should we limit a fantasy tongue to a relatively narrow interpretation?

P.S. I think you mean optative and subjunctive moods

[Hellblazer]

What makes English so complicated is the meaning for each word as well as the complete lack of any logical use. I can't find the link but there is one that breaks things down. I will do my best below to try and show some of English's insane logic.

This is an old list from one of my language courses.

Can you pronounce the following without mistakes?
1)      The bandage was wound around the wound.
2)      The farm was used to produce produce.
3)      The dump was so full that it had to refuse more refuse.
4)      We must polish the Polish furniture.
5)      He could lead if he would get the lead out.
6)      The soldier decided to desert his dessert in the desert.
7)       Since there is no time like the present, he thought it was time to present the present.

8.      A bass was painted on the head of the bass drum.
9)      When shot at, the dove dove into the bushes.
10)     I did not object to the object.
11)     The insurance was invalid for the invalid.
12)     There was a row among the oarsmen about how to row.
13)     They were too close to the door to close it.
14)     The buck does funny things when the does are present.
15)     A seamstress and a sewer fell down into a sewer line.
16)     To help with planting, the farmer taught his sow to sow.
17)     The wind was too strong to wind the sail.

18.     After a number of injections my jaw got number.
19)     Upon seeing the tear in the painting I shed a tear.
20)     I had to subject the subject to a series of tests.
21)     How can I intimate this to my most intimate friend?

No other language in the world has such madness. This is what makes the English language so hard to grasp and even begin to master. It is also why native speakers can't even speak the language properly.

You could start a post on these things.

Cow vs Low
Rough vs Dough vs Cough
Two vs Too vs To
Their vs There
click and clique
 
I could go on and on. =P

have you tried to learn French?:p

[Drizzlin]

have you tried to learn French?:p

Two years in Highschool. Simple language when compared to Japanese and English.

[Hellblazer]

Two years in Highschool. Simple language when compared to Japanese and English.

hehe it's my language I can tell you there is nothing simple about it. Even for me who was born in it with a teacher as mother.

[Drizzlin]

hehe it's my language I can tell you there is nothing simple about it. Even for me who was born in it with a teacher as mother.

I didn't say it was simple. I said it was simple when compared to Japanese and English. Outside of that I am not trying to voice my opinion on how hard French is to learn vs other languages.

There have been numerous studies done on the difficutly of learning a second language. Just google it. As stated above, the exact difficulty of learning a language is based on the native language of the speaker.

It is not that hard of a jump from French to English or English to French. I do have do have to admitt that the French language has a good bit of the same illogical nonsense as the English language. But perhaps that is due to both languages having originated form the same areas.

[havoc]

Teaching it and learning it, no matter what the language, I have found that many appreciate the attempt at polite phrases.  I speak english as a first language, I dont profess to know any other languages but I do enjoy the knowledge I can say please, thank you, hello, good bye, pardon me and where is the bathroom in several languages.  Elves teaching the basics to humans.. whats the harm... Orcs teaching elves.... might even be hugely fun to rp...    my thoughts anyway.

[DMOE]

Because why would an elf wish their beautiful and musical language to be butchered by a human speaking it?

And yes, while adventuring elves are going to be much less snobbish that your average elf.....

The vast percentage of them will have been brought up by snobbish elven parents who will have instilled to them that their language is a beautiful and wondrous thing that the humans with their short life spans and crude ways are beneath it...

While the character's individual nature of course should never be ignored, nor should the 'nurture' that they grew up in.

Parents teaching half elven children is one thing, elves teaching all their mates is another.....

I mean the whole point of common is one common language that allows different races to be understood thus negating the need to teach others your language.

So IMHO, the reason "so they can understand me" is complete hogwash.....As everyone pretty much speaks common and therefore already understands each other.

Now.....I've had lots of fun teaching only elven speaking elves to speak common!!!

[Script Wrecked]

As dwarven is the new common, learn it instead. A much more robust language, impossible to butcher. Learn multiple ways of asking for an ale:

[INDENT]"GIVE me a beer."

"Give ME a beer."

"Give me A BEER."[/INDENT]

The nuances are endless...

[s0ulz]

Not to mention the amount of insults, laughter and extracted gas following every foreign speakers sentence. It happens..

[jan]

You could turn it around .

Why would a stuck up , snobbish , self-centred elf want to learn common ?
Why would they even be in the neighbourhood of smelly humans and dwarfs ?

The questions , the same as the answers , are endless .