Elemental on Throwing?

[Guardian 452]

Most copper weapons also carry 80% reduction too, I think.

At anyrate... thanks for considering the changes. Im a bow guy and even I think that the thrown axes are held back... by stack size and weight. Darts, not so much weight the issue but stack size (if they too are 50, I swear those mithril darts stack higher already)

A malar bag would help... but thats still 50 pounds (with current axe stack size) once you equip a stack.

.

[davidhoff]

I think you have them backwards. Connor is level 34, but his effective caster levels are only 26, so that's 1d4+5 for him.

Well, the thing about Spellswords is they are gifted at flame weapon.  The normal flame weapon computation is 1d4 + CstrLvl/5, so 1d4 + 7 for Tralek (Lvl 35 caster), and 1d4 + 5 for Connor (Lvl 26 caster).  But, Spellswords also add their SS caster level on top of that, so Connor get 3 caster levels for his 5 SS levels.  So, Connor ends up with flame weapon 1d4 +5 + 3 (9-12) and Tralek gets 8-11.

Mithril Throwing Axes?  It takes 20 nuggets of mithril and two shafts of yew to make 25 mithril throwing axes.  A hasted fighter would throw all his axes in five rounds.  With the high level of ingredients and little output...I don't see this as workable.  Addy is a bit better because its usually easier to get, but still, 27 nuggets for 25 axes?  Arrows are by far much easier and less costly to make in bulk...I don't think there's any argument there.

To get back to my original thinking on this...My vision was to be able to carry a small stack of throwing axes with elemental on them for those limited times a ranged attack may be necessary.  Would be neat to have a stack of special axes in your pack.

I don't see the axe thrower getting overbalanced by elemental, but if he was an uber-str build it gets a bit closer. Even so, I still think gmw and fire (can't be cast on axes) give edge to bows based on current stack sizes; and I really think the "vs" damage has to come to play...but now I'm going in circles.

I really like your idea of increasing the stack size and reducing weight.  That's the main reason nobody uses them.

[Guardian 452]

If the stack size goes up, that too would take some of the sting out of making Mithril throwing axes... if it yielded 100 per try (or more?) instead of 25.

[Dorganath]

Well, the thing about Spellswords is they are gifted at flame weapon.  The normal flame weapon computation is 1d4 + CstrLvl/5, so 1d4 + 7 for Tralek (Lvl 35 caster), and 1d4 + 5 for Connor (Lvl 26 caster).  But, Spellswords also add their SS caster level on top of that, so Connor get 3 caster levels for his 5 SS levels.  So, Connor ends up with flame weapon 1d4 +5 + 3 (9-12) and Tralek gets 8-11.

I'm not trying to get into a debate on character builds here, but your math is off.

Connor is a 23rd level Sorcerer with 5 Spellsword levels. He gets a caster level boost for levels 1, 3 and 5 of Spellsword, taking his effective caster level up to 26.  Since Flame Weapon is 1d4 + 1/5 caster levels, that puts him at 1d4+5. Even if he were a level 26 Sorcerer with 5 Spellsword levels on top of that, the increase in caster level would put him up at level 29, and he'd still be at 1d4+5. Your additional +3 there is faulty and false in a couple different ways.

For full disclosure, Spellswords do have Imbue, which starts at 1d6 and goes up to 1d8 and eventually 2d6 but with no additional bonuses for caster levels or Spellsword levels. As far as I know, it only works on melee weapons besides. In that, I don't believe this ability is relevant to the discussion overall...I just thought I'd include it.

Mithril Throwing Axes?  It takes 20 nuggets of mithril and two shafts of yew to make 25 mithril throwing axes.  A hasted fighter would throw all his axes in five rounds.  With the high level of ingredients and little output...I don't see this as workable.  Addy is a bit better because its usually easier to get, but still, 27 nuggets for 25 axes?  Arrows are by far much easier and less costly to make in bulk...I don't think there's any argument there.

No argument. I mentioned it for the weight reduction and as a point of interest, giving further support for the idea of reducing weight and/or increasing stack sizes.  Big picture!

To get back to my original thinking on this...My vision was to be able to carry a small stack of throwing axes with elemental on them for those limited times a ranged attack may be necessary.  Would be neat to have a stack of special axes in your pack.

While I'm responding to you, I'll ask this of any potential throwing axe users:

Are you considering throwing axes to be a secondary weapon or a primary?

This too is kind of integral to the decision process.  Archers tend to use bows and arrows as their primary weapon, falling back to melee only when necessary.  Would it be the same for axe throwers? I kind of suspect not, even with a more capable and accessible throwing axe given a collection of factors. It sounds like for you the throwing axe is a special-case weapon.

More on this later...

I don't see the axe thrower getting overbalanced by elemental, but if he was an uber-str build it gets a bit closer. Even so, I still think gmw and fire (can't be cast on axes) give edge to bows based on current stack sizes; and I really think the "vs" damage has to come to play...but now I'm going in circles.

"Vs." damage comes into play when you happen to be fighting that particular creature or creature type. In that respect, a "vs." weapon should be better than a generic weapon; that's the whole point. However, looking at the big picture, the potential for "vs." damage in a narrower scope does not really help the overall discussion of how throwing axes perform in a more general sense.  The only way in which it would become relevant is if we were going to make axes like arrows in the sense that there's all those different varieties with "vs." damage, but we just can't do that without significant sacrifices.  So, since that's off the table, to make a reasonable comparison, we have to compare a more generic case.

I really like your idea of increasing the stack size and reducing weight.  That's the main reason nobody uses them.

Understood.

If the stack size goes up, that too would take some of the sting out of making Mithril throwing axes... if it yielded 100 per try (or more?) instead of 25.

Yep, and that was exactly my point.

Personally, I think if throwing axes and darts were given all the benefits of arrows, they'd overtake arrows.   At first glance, I don't think I see a problem with adding Flame Weapon/Darkfire to the mix. The question then becomes: "What about the rest?"

And that is the real crux of the matter.  I could make them easier to make and/or increase the yield, especially for the upper recipes. That would make them more plentiful and used more often surely. Coupled with a weight reduction, people could carry more. I could make them elementally-enhanceable, but perhaps keep the stack size as it is now, thereby making it more "expensive" to enhance throwing axes (they are bigger and heavier than arrows, afterall).

It gets back to how one would use throwing axes if they were changed.  Thinking not about how you use them now because of how they are, but rather how you would like to use them...

Do you want to be able to use them more? If so, making them lighter/bigger stack/more yield from crafting/Flame Weapon + GMW may be more appropriate. This could be coupled with perhaps allowing Enhancement rods to apply to a stack one time, giving one the choice of some specialty axes for special situations.  If you want more punch for the occasional use, then keeping weight and/or stack size and/or crafting yield the same while allowing greater enhancement potential (i.e. more uses for a single rod) may be more appropriate.

[Hellblazer]

Bow possible damage:
+5  GMW Yes
+8-10  Flame weapon (this is a normal range on my experience) no longer possible or is that only on trained bows that it's no longer possible??
1d8  Bow yes
1d8  Arrow yes (unless trained then it's 1d6)
+4  Mighty (crafted bows max is +3)
1d8  Elemental damage (only on arrows that are not used on a trained bow)
2d8  Vs. creature damage (only if not on a trained bow. Trained bows are 2d6 and it replace the base 1d6 of the arrow)
Max damage possible for bow = 59
Average damage per bow = 38

Some precision here.

So if it's not a trained bow then in reality it's a max of 41 for untrained bows. 28 for trained bows which can only be done with crafted bows I think.

[davidhoff]

I'm not trying to get into a debate on character builds here, but your math is off.

Connor is a 23rd level Sorcerer with 5 Spellsword levels. He gets a caster level boost for levels 1, 3 and 5 of Spellsword, taking his effective caster level up to 26. Since Flame Weapon is 1d4 + 1/5 caster levels, that puts him at 1d4+5. Even if he were a level 26 Sorcerer with 5 Spellsword levels on top of that, the increase in caster level would put him up at level 29, and he'd still be at 1d4+5. Your additional +3 there is faulty and false in a couple different ways.

I want to direct you to a previous post where I already discussed this and the related post linked within.  Spellswords do get a boost and we are pretty sure its the SS's casterlevel bonus (+1 at lvl 1, 3, 5, etc).  Break Connor out and dust off his sword with some flame weapon, hit some things (maybe Fehriel will volunteer  O.o ) and you'll eventually get a 12 on fire damage.

I like you're thinking on the throwing axes.  It's a good question on whether the axes will be used as a primary or secondary weapon.  I'd say most would use as secondary, but you can't count out the few that might want to build an axe thrower.  Looks like you got at least these variables to shuffle: flame weapon on axes, stack size, weight, crafted axe stack output, elemental-none, elemental-one-use and elemental-10-uses.  This is obviously your choice on what to add and what not to.

If it was up to me, I'd let flame be cast on axes.  I would increase the stack to 100 (also for craftable output).  I would set the weight to .1/lb per axe, or 10lbs for stack of 100.  I would allow elemental-one-use (rod breaks after application).  For mithril axes (80% weight reduction), not sure what putting the weight to .1/lb would do, but my guess is it would make them weight 0.  Pretty neat, plus you get the +3.  Even if the mithril axes are not affected by this and come in heavier (20lbs/stack of 100) they still get the +3 if someone wants to go there.

[Hellblazer]

*Fehriel looks to the right then the left to those assembled* hmmm me? *passes his forearm on his forehead for some reason*

[Dorganath]

I want to direct you to a previous post where I already discussed this and the related post linked within.  Spellswords do get a boost and we are pretty sure its the SS's casterlevel bonus (+1 at lvl 1, 3, 5, etc).  Break Connor out and dust off his sword with some flame weapon, hit some things (maybe Fehriel will volunteer  O.o ) and you'll eventually get a 12 on fire damage.

You know what?

I had this whole analysis typed up with supporting math taken straight from the code.  I'm not posting it because...In going through the code carefully and digging through the thread and linked threads, I have discovered that there is, in fact, a double application of Spellsword (and other bonus-caster-level PrC) levels that should not be there. It's doing it once and dividing by 5 to get the + modifier, which it then passes to the OnHit: Cast Spell property. When the OnHit property is triggered, it does it again, but this time those bonus levels are added on top of the + modifier (for Connor's case, his Sorcerer levels would give him 1d4+4, his Spellsword levels would boost that to 1d4+5, and the OnHit bug would boost that to 1d4 + 8...making you right in observation but the end result still wrong), and so Spellswords and Palemasters get extra bonuses on Flame Weapon that they should not, and likewise, Sacred Fists will likely get a bonus on Darkfire that they should not.

So...this will get fixed so that it's in line with what it should be.

Unfortunately this means that you still have to use my lower numbers when bringing Darkfire and Flame Weapon into the mix in this discussion. *winks*

[davidhoff]

I really don't think you need to change it...I think its pretty cool that Spellswords get the lil-boost in fire damage...they are a very special PRC that is supposed to be able to imbue weapons magically like no other.

This is what I said before:

Well, the thing about Spellswords is they are gifted at flame weapon. The normal flame weapon computation is 1d4 + CstrLvl/5, so 1d4 + 7 for Tralek (Lvl 35 caster), and 1d4 + 5 for Connor (Lvl 26 caster). But, Spellswords also add their SS caster level on top of that, so Connor get 3 caster levels for his 5 SS levels. So, Connor ends up with flame weapon 1d4 +5 + 3 (9-12) and Tralek gets 8-11.

You said:

making you right in observation but the end result still wrong

How is my "end result still wrong"?  I think I was dead-on  

Compare my computation above, to yours:

It's doing it once and dividing by 5 to get the + modifier, which it then passes to the OnHit: Cast Spell property. When the OnHit property is triggered, it does it again, but this time those bonus levels are added on top of the + modifier (for Connor's case, his Sorcerer levels would give him 1d4+4, his Spellsword levels would boost that to 1d4+5, and the OnHit bug would boost that to 1d4 + 8...making you right in observation but the end result still wrong),

We both end up with Connor getting 9-12. *winks*  But now we're getting dangerously close to a powder-puff match.

Anyways, again, don't think you need to change Spellswords flame weapon.  It's not a huge advantage, and it's appropriate I think.  For the palemasters or sacred fists...I'm not sure if it's appropriate or if it gets more unbalanced with them...or if you could even piecemeal it just for SS's.

[Dorganath]

I really don't think you need to change it...I think its pretty cool that Spellswords get the lil-boost in fire damage...they are a very special PRC that is supposed to be able to imbue weapons magically like no other.

This is what I said before:



You said:



How is my "end result still wrong"?  I think I was dead-on  

Compare my computation above, to yours:



We both end up with Connor getting 9-12. *winks*  But now we're getting dangerously close to a powder-puff match.

Yes, what I'm saying is Connor should not be in the 9-12 range but rather the 6-9 range. Thus, you are correct in observation of what is currently, with a bug in place, but still incorrect as to what was designed and intended.

*throws a flaming Mighty +10 cotton ball*

Anyways, again, don't think you need to change Spellswords flame weapon.  It's not a huge advantage, and it's appropriate I think.  For the palemasters or sacred fists...I'm not sure if it's appropriate or if it gets more unbalanced with them...or if you could even piecemeal it just for SS's.

Your opinion is noted and understood, but I'm still fixing it. *smiles*

Spellswords honestly don't need the additional boost.  Depending on the level, a Spellsword's levels can easily bump up the damage on Flame Weapon by +1.  It may not sound like much, but cumulatively it adds up, especially against foes with fire vulnerability.  Beyond that, a Spellsword can start with a weapon that has an Electrical enhancement on it, cast Flame Weapon and then use Imbue: Cold and have a pretty heavily-enhanced weapon.

[Guardian 452]

Now having a vested interest in T hrowing Axes (my new dwarf Koigan Axechucker, who's only ranged weapon will be axes).

Any chance of an update on the issues of....

Stack size? (increasing)

Weight of each Axe? (decreasing)
For starters current copper axes dont offer the -80% weight reduction that (almost) everything else copper offers.

Adding Element rods to Throwing axes? (making this possible)

EDIT Cost on ranged merchant? (going down). Presently 99, arrows, 99 bolts, all cost 1 gp. 25 Suriken, and 25 darts cost 1 gp. 25 throwing axes cost 102 gp!!! (at Centers ranged merchant). Why so much more? Granted my character is already working on making his own... but still seems to be a bit out of skew doesnt it?

Thanks!

.

[Guardian 452]

Giving this thread a nudge to see if any official decision was made on throwing axe, weight, stack size, being able to use element rods on them.

thanks.

[Dorganath]

There's something coming...