Frustrated

[Witch Hunter]

there are many servers with a rating higher than layo's
And i've found one where people take their time and RP just as well as on layo, granted the land is way bigger than layonara, less laggy and has the same amount of users online... the world is quite boring... but the players are very experienced RP'ers and very nice.
I expected more from you mr. arguement. where is your aguemetative spirit today you send me more arguement in tells than this....
i'm let down...

 
 I'm not about to argue with you if you don't like Layonara - if you feel like this server is a let down and others are better... just leave?
 
 I love Layonana and I ain't leaving til L closes the light, that's for sure.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

He's not saying he hates layo.  In fact he said like six times Layo is his Favorite Server....  Why are you always looking for a fight Witch?

I'm not going anywhere I'll still pop on layo and RP, I am just giving the team time to work out the issues that are causing problems.
Look forward to RP-ing with you all, just not as adventurous.

...I will alway spend time on Layo it's my favorite server...

... Again, I am not LEAVING....

...I'm merely at wits ends watching my friends get tired of playing and looking for other servers... then comming to find me to say hey, come check this one out and we'll go here... I DO NOT WANT THAT FOR LAYO!...

[Drizzlin]

Ok   I did not mean to start this huge debate.  I was simply frustrated that once again I can not play for the little while I had because I was once agian dead and unable to return to my grave site, and that while before if I ended up dead I could at least craft with what I had in my pack.  

You have never been able to gain xps (even crafting xps) while under the death sickness, it has always been that way.

[MJZ]

Can we not use this thread to argue whether Layonara is good or not when we all know we love it to itsie bitsies otherwise we wouldn't be here? LONG LIVE LAYO!

The problem here is that some people are feeling conflicted, they love the place but they are finding it is causing them more stress and frustration than enjoyment. What can we do about this?

[Drizzlin]

@twidget658

".....I took him into a cave (not named for CNR purposes) and he about got his butt handed to him. I found out that the cave only contained greenstone and copper. My character is level 21 and should not be taking such beatings from the things that were in the cave....."

Was that on West? A cave should not be that difficult for west CNR, unless there is something there that I am not aware of at this time. PM me please.

The only place I currently know where to find Greenstone is in the same place it was in V2, which has now gone from a level 1-6 area to a level 7-12. Greenstone is the lowest level CNR for gemcrafting and should be in a low level area IMO. I have not said anything about it because I was hoping it would be moved to the lower level starting areas around Hempsted and Vehl. I go in there by myself on a level 17 pc and have almost died quite a few times. I'm not complaining at all, because I think the difficulty is fine for 7-12 level parties. I just feel the greenstone needs to be moved, along with the copper. Perhaps put malachite, tin, and maybe one iron deposit down there in its place.

[MJZ]

I do believe they are working on moving it, this has been mentioned since V3's release.

[Acacea]

Yeah, it's the damage. Basically as long as your HP is above -10, you still have a shot. If you're at 2HP and you get hit for 5, you'll be incapacitated but have a shot of recovery. If you're at 2HP and you get hit for 50, you're dead dead.

At higher levels, people rarely bleed to death, as things do large amounts of damage at a time, so as far as I've seen its a good recovery thing for the lower levels where things are...well, icky and you don't have many ways to defend yourself.

I don't think constitution has anything to do with how OFTEN someone stabilizes, as I'm almost positive everyone has the same shot at that, but someone who can look would have to answer if there is anything besides Regeneration that can help with stabilizing.

[Witch Hunter]

He's not saying he hates layo. In fact he said like six times Layo is his Favorite Server.... Why are you always looking for a fight Witch?

 
 I'd like to point out three things:
 
 1) If I was looking for a fight I'd aruge, not say what I did.
 2) I did not read the entire thread, nor will I.. It is beyond my ability to understand what's going on here.
 3) Why are -YOU- always trying to blame me? stop rushing ahead of yourself Shiff, it gets annoying.
 
 
 That's all.

[Weeblie]

The relocation of CNR is indeed something that's worked on... and maybe something that already has been done in some cases too.

Only one way to find out though... Exploring!

[Acacea]

There's actually an overabundance of copper if I remember, I know it exists in at least one new place, possibly two. Greenstone was put in too.

Not arguing about the difficulty or anything related, as I haven't been through with a new character, simply that they exist in places other than V2 versions, that's all. I can't comment on how appropriate it is for the level range, just that it's different.

Edit - sorry on the lack of quotes in this post and the one above; the first one was made as I was looking at the second page and didn't notice the third page, so I didn't realize it wouldn't be directly after MJZ's post.

[Dorganath]

I am going to make one further comment in this thread, and it is a general comment directed at no one in particular.

My responses here have been made with the intent to inform and explain.  That's all.  I did not respond to argue, nor to get into a debate about who is right or wrong.  For whatever intent that may have been read into or perceived in anything I have written, I had no hostility or desire to discredit the other party.  That's not my style and I do try very hard to make sure such things do not come across in what I write here.

I responded to address concerns and to explain...and perhaps let people know a little about what goes on, or should go on from my perspective.  In my time here, and especially after becoming a GM, working on module development, etc., I have seen and heard a lot of incorrect assumptions regarding the GM staff.  I even had some of them myself before I became a GM.  

But in my experience as "regular" player and as a GM, I have seen rumors, assumptions, untruths and just poor behavior send anything from ripples to waves through the community.  Generally, the difference between the ripple and the wave is that the wave builds up over a longer period of time, where as a ripple is usually released early and it fades away.

So for those of you who could follow my metaphore, the key thing that keeps a ripple from turning into a wave is that someone brings it up early, and constructively.  By the time it gets to the point where someone is so fed up or angry or frustrated about it, the outcome is rarely positive.

I cannot help that people fear GMs or are afraid to bring things forth.  I can only do what I can to portray myself in a manner befitting the trust that has been given me over the last couple of years. I'm not perfect, and I will mess up.  Despite rumors to the contrary, I'm only as human as the next guy.  Each day is a test of that and a chance to do better. It's all I can do.

On that note, I'm stepping back from this thread.

[Interia_Discordius]

....First thing to say, WOW. Frustrated is the perfect name for this topic. Maybe downright raging?

Okay, useless and smart aleck comment out of the way, I'll try to take this in a Christine style post and hope I can bring up some things and assist a bit in calming the flames. **dumps canteen over fire**

Right then.

The first thing I'd like to bring up is the DM spawning creatures on top of players. I'm completely fine with this idea, although I lost my first soul strand to it. I've been spawned on twice, killed both times, and both due to an amount of over-OOCing (which ticked me off a bit because I'm the one dying while the person who was doing it lived).

With that aside, the first time we were spawned on turned out to be a great impromptu quest. Kudos for that. It later even became a miniature series, and I always ran back to the area in hopes to get more.

The second time wasn't as good...We had a balor spawned on us, those who didn't run away in time were slaughtered, the end. That's the only fault I have with being spawned on...If it's done, I think a follow-up RP should be given. A balor doesn't just APPEAR in a cave and have that be the end.

My point for random spawning for whatever reasons? Please, just have it be something more than that. If RP is stressed, then I believe it is good form for there to be a reason such things happened. If not, then maybe a simple pulling player in wrong out and talking to them OOC.

I really don't think "intimidating" or "frightening" are good words to describe a GM. If you were one, how would you go about answering requests and other situations? I'm not intending to come off as "you don't understand" or anything, don't get me wrong. I'm sincere in my question because maybe an example of how you'd like to be answered in a GM reply for reimbursements may give further detail as to what you really want from them

Rants, control, player this, GM that...I'm just a kid here, so it's honestly hard for me to even begin fathoming bills and taxes, but I think the best way we can take it here is to give both sides a round of applause. Players, Leanther, GMs, we're all playing equal parts to a growing/dwindling community. Instead of saying WHAT we are, per se, I like to think of us as what we do. Players bring the opinions, the big dog keeps the servers up, and the GMs add in twists and changes, which are again replied to by players with opinions. Instead of one being more important than another, we are backed by another like a system of checks and balances. The RP, the "life"...We, as a whole, are that.

Hmm, hmm, what else did I notice...?

I think in general, we're getting our hackles raised about this from whatever frustrations. On every side! I think before someone gets icky or this thread is locked down or worse, it's best to step back and re-read everything that's being said while keeping an open mind about it. Tones are interpreted differently as allneal pointed out, and although we are ourselves, you do have to keep in mind that bluntness can come off as a more aggravating thing than helpful, and an attempt at explanation can seem an excuse. Either way, I'm playing peace maker here (or attempting to), and I'll admit to saying I'd really like to see us all go back to being descriptively helpful.

I'll edit as I see fit, but for now, this is what I have to say.

[lonnarin]

Back to the subject of CNR accessability, this area can indeed benefit from some overhauls and balancing.  I have noticed CNR shifting to become more scarce and dangerous to obtain progressively.  These shifts are often in response to dedicated individuals farming areas too often and levelling in their craft "too quickly", which is an entirely relative term.  For some "too quickly" is seeing a mid-level person solo haven for iron and gain 3-4 crafting levels in a week, though those that point this out always see the week and not the significant number of hours that week played by the unemployed, net-addicted gamer in question.  In order to keep them in check, the CNR becomes more difficult to obtain and practice, and procedures are normalized to make that player level in crafting about once a week or so.  This means that the player with the healthy social life who logs in just a few hours a week now must spend about 4-7 weeks for the same comparable crafting level, and is now totally put off by crafting.

The question I pose is this... "what is more rare in medeival society... an adventurer or a craftsman?".  Like when you travel from town to town, there is always a... A) Blacksmith B) Seamstress C) Brewer or D) guy who fights ogres for a living,l can survive a ballista-shot to the gut and has a bank account with over 40,000gp?

When a well-balanced party of adventurers is being demolished every time they try and fetch iron, then logically we should be experiencing a stone age in layonara where we all live in thatch huts, use sticks instead of spoons and forks at the supper table, and the most common weapon being the club.

It has been stated many times before that "not everybody who plays has to be a crafter".  And to this I agree.  A player could not even touch crafting and go lvl 1-30 without even missing it.  On the flip side however, I propose that Not everybody who crafts should be an adventurer.  Lesser metals like copper, tin and iron should be in some way affordable and accessable on a craftsman's pay and capabilities... it should not be expected however that every smith in the land who can make an iron sword must be at least a 6th lvl fighter.  I'm not saying that adamantium and mithral be anywhere near accessable for them... those are dream metals and should be only encountered by the fabulously wealthy merchant upper class and the odd adventuring smith.  But copper, tin and Iron?  if people of mid-level range are having such trouble obtaining those, then balancing is a very possible solution.

That's my 2 cents on the subject of balancing feedback.

[Drizzlin]

The relocation of CNR is indeed something that's worked on... and maybe something that already has been done in some cases too.

Only one way to find out though... Exploring!

You crazy!!?!! I'm not going out there in the world, it is scary now! =)

[darkstorme]

Wow.
I for one have a question about the chances of stabilizing while bleeding to death. My Sorceress character has a higher constitution than my BardBarian, yet he usually stabilizes while she does not. Also, sometimes you die instantly - is this relative to the amount of damage received? Maybe not the best place to ask this question, but maybe something to do with stabilization rates would help the death frustration many players feel. There are several ways you can recover - saved while bleeding, stabilize, even then you don't have to lose an SS, etc. Yet it seems to happen often that we die, despite all these measures - perhaps this is an issue with enemies doing too much damage? I know if a spellcaster is unfortunate enough to take a hit or two in battle, they are dead. Now, I know they usually aren't wearing armor, but still - if one crit is all it takes..

Yeah, it's the damage. Basically as long as your HP is above -10, you still have a shot. If you're at 2HP and you get hit for 5, you'll be incapacitated but have a shot of recovery. If you're at 2HP and you get hit for 50, you're dead dead.

At higher levels, people rarely bleed to death, as things do large amounts of damage at a time, so as far as I've seen its a good recovery thing for the lower levels where things are...well, icky and you don't have many ways to defend yourself.

I don't think constitution has anything to do with how OFTEN someone stabilizes, as I'm almost positive everyone has the same shot at that, but someone who can look would have to answer if there is anything besides Regeneration that can help with stabilizing.

For the math on it:  Every character, regardless of Constitution and leaving aside things like Regeneration, has a 10% chance of stabilizing on any one hit-point loss when bleeding to death.

So, when dropped below 0 hitpoints, your chances of bleeding to death are:

• -1 == 38.7% chance
• -2 == 43.0% chance
• -3 == 47.8% chance
• -4 == 53.1% chance
• -5 == 59.0% chance
• -6 == 65.6% chance
• -7 == 72.9% chance
• -8 == 81.0% chance
• -9 == 90.0% chance

So, really, what you should hope for upon being struck down is "Oh [insert deity of choice], please let me just be one hitpoint under...".  :)

[twidget658]

If it's done, I think a follow-up RP should be given.

 
 Back in the day, it was common practice for the GM that did the spawning to appear after all was said and done and do a debrief. "You died because of...", "You all did great as a team...", "It is a good strategy to...", etc. it was fun, rewarding, and people actually learned fromthe experience. Aether (Dorganath) and Anansi (Rhizome) were the best at it from what I had experienced. It was the same creatures you were fighting but they just kept coming and coming. For one, it taxed your abilities. Secondly, you learned from the experience. It wasn't done out of malice or punishment, but for fun.
 
 Oh, and recently, I had a GM (points towards Arbiter) do a little scenario with an ogre boss in the crowd of ogres. Yeah, my charatcer died (but was raised) but it wasn't the intent. I was role playing like my character would act and it got the best of her. It ended up being one heck of a time.
 
 I would like to see the interaction come back. A hidden GM doesn't have to face the crowd, but when the GM appears and does a bit of OOC...it just helps any hard feelings at the time and removes any false perceptions. If necessary, the GM can port everyone to the GM area and have a chat right then (been there, done that and on more than one occasion).
 
 Not all GMs are the same and stereotyping is not fair.

[twidget658]

The CNR and stabilization topics should be moved to its own thread so it is not lost.

[Interia_Discordius]

Amen to that, twidget Glad to see I'm not the only one feeling like something would be nice to have added along with the spawning.

[Praylor Falcus]

As to me never mentioning this before , please look at: NWN Discussions and suggestions/NWN Ideas-Suggestions-Request/Resting in Haven Mines thread.
 
   While i did not start this post i did post #9, #11, and #13. The responses i got made me feel as if it was assumed I was complaining of my own situation and the fact that i was concerned with balance and fairness to the newer players was lost and I was repeatedly reminded of "my Haven Runs".
    SO as to why I don't post , look at the response I got when i did try to bring this up once before.
 
   I would also like to give "L" a big thumbs up for his "World Plot"  start Sunday. Information on what is happening is good, the sudden shift and relocation with a "You are to assume It's always been this way" was most disruptive on role playing ability for many, I know we will adjust, but i ask your Patience and understanding from the players side of things.

[havoc]

Ok people.....

Enough.....

Sniping at each other and at the staff is counter productive.

I started this thread in good faith to let the staff know that there was something that needed attention.

I DO NOT like reading line after line of  .. blame and sniping and petty I have to put my nickles worth in.

Not a single post after this one.   I dont have the authority or the ability to lock it... or I would.  

the staff here has been very encouraging and willing to listen.  They are quality builders and do a very good job at making this a quality place to play.

I am embarrased by the attitudes and mean spirited swipes made in this thread.

That is not what I intended.

Please    stop.

Edit by orth: I believe you have every right to close the thread, so I'll do it for you. 100 posts in.