HiPS versus Stealth

[Interia_Discordius]

I've been seeing stealth and HiPS RPed pretty much the exact same way, so my question is, is there a difference between the two, or is it just game mechanics?

The reason why I ask is although being a shadowdancer provides game mechanic benefits, it doesn't do much for roleplay. You're still required to be in shadows like a normal rogue and can't do the general DnD 10 feet of shadow requirement distance, speak intelligibly to a shadow, etc.

I just want to know if I'm missing something...It's hard for me to "teach" shadowdancing at all when I'm asked to because it's pretty much the exact thing as being a rogue nowadays without the game mechanics benefits...

[pejsaboy]

The big difference is this: A shadow dancer using HiPS can go into stealth while being observed by ducking into some sort of cover, such as a shadow, the dark of night or inside a dark cave. The rogue cannot disappear from view while being observed, they'd have to be in another room, behind a wall, etc.

Even though the game mechanics allow them to, neither stealth nor HiPS should work during broad daylight in the middle of the road, for example.

[darkstorme]

Well, there are mechanical benefits - chief among them the fact that without a smoke bomb/darkness spell to help them out, a rogue can't hide from someone who's watching them.  If they vanish around a corner, and the pursuer loses a line-of-sight with them, then they can hide and be successful, but otherwise, they're perfectly visible.

To illustrate, imagine playing hide and seek, but when you're supposed to be hiding your eyes and counting to a hundred, you're facing the hiders.  One of them cleverly hides in the branches of a tree... climbing it as you watch.  Clearly, ineffective.

In contrast, imagine you're playing with a shadowdancer.  They move off, into the shadow of that same tree.  You're watching them, waiting to see where they're going.  And then, they suddenly get harder to see.  Your eyes water, as you strain to see them, but somehow they're obscured, you can't see them... and they're gone.  After looking around intently, you finally spot them moving from tree to tree.. but the key is, even though you were looking directly at them, they vanished.

That's the "Plain Sight" part.  For everyday stealth, the person can only "vanish" if they put something - a pillar, a tree, a wall - between them and the person in question.  For the shadowdancer, that critical moment when the seeker loses line-of-sight is provided automatically.  They still have to creep around thereafter, and the person looking for them might still spot them - it's not invisibility - but they can manage to elude light itself for that one crucial instant.

It's a remarkable ability, and not something unconscious on the part of the shadowdancer, any more than a rogue would unconsciously flatten himself against a wall and creep around a temple.  Often, in PnP campaigns involving a shadowdancer, this is the hardest part to cover in flavour text, because there really isn't anything like it in life.  Invisibility is one thing - that's just an object vanishing, a cloaking device.  But the Shadowdancer's ability is to elude eyesight (and light) for the moment or two that he/she needs to duck behind real cover.

[Interia_Discordius]

Okay, that clarifies a lot then. I just get irritated when people who aren't shadowdancers emote the same things that the SDs would and actually seeing it working, because then I always feel like I'm just doing it for the game mechanics...

Thanks, then.

[Hellblazer]

Well, there are mechanical benefits - chief among them the fact that without a smoke bomb/darkness spell to help them out, a rogue can't hide from someone who's watching them.  If they vanish around a corner, and the pursuer loses a line-of-sight with them, then they can hide and be successful, but otherwise, they're perfectly visible.

even ducking behind a wall doesn't always work as I have learn the hard way against a normal giant that had no ts and ran after me through about 5 turns until i could use my belt safely and out run him to hide behind a wall go stealth and see him come from a large distance, turn the corner, come to me and bash me. I lost a dt trying to escape him after that. I had not fire with my bow on it. It had only seen me as i went by and it started to pursue me. That was in the alexandrite level of the second cave in the dregar desert. I have a base bonus of 35 so I donut know what happened there.

[Interia_Discordius]

Well, mechanically, things are weird.

I'm just asking this for roleplaying on GM quests since it seems to get me every time.

[Hellblazer]

Well, there are mechanical benefits - chief among them the fact that without a smoke bomb/darkness

do we really have smoke bombs in game?

[darkstorme]

even ducking behind a wall doesn't always work as I have learn the hard way against a normal giant that had no ts and ran after me through about 5 turns until i could use my belt safely and out run him to hide behind a wall go stealth and see him come from a large distance, turn the corner, come to me and bash me. I lost a dt trying to escape him after that. I had not fire with my bow on it. It had only seen me as i went by and it started to pursue me. That was in the alexandrite level of the second cave in the dregar desert. I have a base bonus of 35 so I donut know what happened there.

I was referring to the RP, not to the game mechanics.

Edit: Again, roleplay.  No smoke bombs.  Code one up if you want to suggest it.

[Joyrock]

Well, there are mechanical benefits - chief among them the fact that without a smoke bomb/darkness spell to help them out, a rogue can't hide from someone who's watching them.  If they vanish around a corner, and the pursuer loses a line-of-sight with them, then they can hide and be successful, but otherwise, they're perfectly visible.

To illustrate, imagine playing hide and seek, but when you're supposed to be hiding your eyes and counting to a hundred, you're facing the hiders.  One of them cleverly hides in the branches of a tree... climbing it as you watch.  Clearly, ineffective.

In contrast, imagine you're playing with a shadowdancer.  They move off, into the shadow of that same tree.  You're watching them, waiting to see where they're going.  And then, they suddenly get harder to see.  Your eyes water, as you strain to see them, but somehow they're obscured, you can't see them... and they're gone.  After looking around intently, you finally spot them moving from tree to tree.. but the key is, even though you were looking directly at them, they vanished.

That's the "Plain Sight" part.  For everyday stealth, the person can only "vanish" if they put something - a pillar, a tree, a wall - between them and the person in question.  For the shadowdancer, that critical moment when the seeker loses line-of-sight is provided automatically.  They still have to creep around thereafter, and the person looking for them might still spot them - it's not invisibility - but they can manage to elude light itself for that one crucial instant.

It's a remarkable ability, and not something unconscious on the part of the shadowdancer, any more than a rogue would unconsciously flatten himself against a wall and creep around a temple.  Often, in PnP campaigns involving a shadowdancer, this is the hardest part to cover in flavour text, because there really isn't anything like it in life.  Invisibility is one thing - that's just an object vanishing, a cloaking device.  But the Shadowdancer's ability is to elude eyesight (and light) for the moment or two that he/she needs to duck behind real cover.

I was always under the impression that a shadow dancer slipped between the  planes, the prime and the shadow plane, and that they could do this only when in 10 feet of a shadow, and it can not be there own. Is this connected to the mechanics of the ability, or different from which you speak? I never played a shadow dancer in PnP merely read up on them. I know they slip between the prime and shadow plane when they use shadow jump, and they call forth a shadow from the shadow plane.

HIPS

A Shadow dancer can use the hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot however, hide in her own shadow

 this is how it works in DnD 3.5 word for word if you have access to it, check the DMG page 194-195 it offers alittle on the PrC pretty much everything I just said :s I don't know where you could get a full understanding of how they do this, I just know they use the shadow plane. if I find out any info I will PM you it.

[darkstorme]

The planes are different in Layonara - Shadowdancers don't have Shadow Jump as an ability, and a lot of the Plane information from the DMG and Planar handbooks doesn't apply here.

This is why (although this used not to be the case) there are no Planetouched stranded here from Sigil or elsewhere on the Planes.  The writing team has assured us, however, that the Layo-specific Planes are getting a workover, which will doubtless appear in the release of the next set of handbooks.

Most of this was covered in this post.

[Talan Va'lash]

I was always under the impression that a shadow dancer slipped between the  planes, the prime and the shadow plane, and that they could do this only when in 10 feet of a shadow, and it can not be there own. Is this connected to the mechanics of the ability, or different from which you speak? I never played a shadow dancer in PnP merely read up on them. I know they slip between the prime and shadow plane when they use shadow jump, and they call forth a shadow from the shadow plane.

That is definitely not the case in PnP or Layonara.

The plane of shadow is a really really really nasty place. Both planewalking to it AND surviving there for more than a second or two are epic abilities.

To clarify, by "epic abilities" I do not mean they are feats you can choose or whatnot. I mean that they're incredible things that it would take an epic character to think about trying.

[Joyrock]

That is definitely not the case in PnP or Layonara.

The plane of shadow is a really really really nasty place. Both planewalking to it AND surviving there for more than a second or two are epic abilities.

To clarify, by "epic abilities" I do not mean they are feats you can choose or whatnot. I mean that they're incredible things that it would take an epic character to think about trying.

Shadows dancers do not enter the shadow plane when they HIPS, they just get between the planes, much like a ghost does but a ghost is more attached to plane of the dead and not the prime just like a shadow dancer is on the prime and special weapons must be used to harm it a shadow dancer can not be harmed from anything on the shadow plane side while using HIPS. but shows up on the shadow plane, and it is not really that dangerous. Travelers  cross the shadow plane all the time to lesson travel time just depends on your DM though there are shadows there that are a MM CR 13. but a shadow dancers is there more moments or fractions of a second and only when they use shadow jump  when they enter it to jump from shadow to shadow.

but being that layo does not have the shadow plane, I would have no clue as to how it would work. but the rules on HIPS are posted in that quote. that all the DMG gives, so if Layo keeps to the DMG rules that would be them. and the main thing to keep in mind when RPing it is 10 from a shadow, and it can't be your own. but that is a no brainer.

[Laldiien]

*SNIP*

but being that layo does not have the shadow plane, I would have no clue as to how it would work. but the rules on HIPS are posted in that quote. that all the DMG gives, so if Layo keeps to the DMG rules that would be them. and the main thing to keep in mind when RPing it is 10 from a shadow, and it can't be your own. but that is a no brainer.

Just as a clarification, there have been a couple of threads recently that have addressed a few of these questions.  I am going to shamelessly rip from Dorganath's posts.

To the current rule set issue, NWN and Layonara are using the D&D 3.0 ruleset, as stated HERE.  I am not certain if that changes the HiPS use, as I am not familiar enough with the rules.  I will happily defer to someone who knows the incarnations better, I just wanted to make sure the discussion keeps an "apples to apples" sort of thing.

With respect to how Layo would do things, THIS post illustrates the progression of how Layo implements the rules.

The progression of precedence goes D&D 3rd Edition rules and mechanics -> NWN rules and mechanics -> Layonara rules and mechanics, with each successive one overriding those before.

Just wanted to make certain everyone was on the same page.

[Joyrock]

yep it is the same in 3.0 as 3.5

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Well... I don't mean to sound snippish, but this isn't PnP. This isn't 3.0 or 3.5, this is Layo. We base off of the D&D/NWN rules, but when it comes down to the how and why of things in a roleplay sense, there are more things that are different in Layo than there are the same.

Shadowdancing... They don't slip between planes, but simply learn to wrap themselves in shadow, or make themselves look so like the shadow that you can't tell the difference any more.

[Joyrock]

Well... I don't mean to sound snippish, but this isn't PnP. This isn't 3.0 or 3.5, this is Layo. We base off of the D&D/NWN rules, but when it comes down to the how and why of things in a roleplay sense, there are more things that are different in Layo than there are the same.

Shadowdancing... They don't slip between planes, but simply learn to wrap themselves in shadow, or make themselves look so like the shadow that you can't tell the difference any more.

Well it does matter,to someone that RP's it and the poster seems to know a great deal of how it works, BUT if it was just *you wrap a shadow around youself*, I would think any mage with shadow shield would be able to HIPS. and that a SD would get the bonuses of Shadow shield when HIPS, because that what shadow shield does.

Ever seen someone in shadow shield? ( not being sarcastic, just don't know if you have) you can pick them out like a a big redsign durring the day, or in a decently lighted place. in a dark room? Now you can't do that in a darkroom, but HIPS is so much more then that, your hiding in plain sight. I could walk up to you and wave my hand right infront of your face, and chances are you would not see me.

punch you in your face then hide, while your looking directly at me.

Now how do you RP that? Lets not forget that is the question being asked here. And I find a very good one, I posted the DnD info because when answering such a question I would like everyone to know the standard on it.

remember as the fella posted from Dorg it goes DnD 3.0 < NWN < Layo.

DnD 3.0 may be at the bottom of that list, but it is the only one that has CLEAR rules on HIPS. Unless a head of Layo comments, it would be the one I would go with. BUT layo does not use shadow plane, but that still does not mean you would simply wrap your self in the shadows. So that puts us at a crossroad. :\\  To be honest this is not the first time I have seen it popup on a RP server, nor do I think it will be the last.

[Talan Va'lash]

Actually, the Shadowdancer description in the DMG makes no mention of the IC metaphysics behind HiPS nor shadow jump (the two SD abilities that would be nicely explained with some sort of extraplanar traval.) It mostly talks about the game mechanics and gives some very short descriptions of what the Shadowdancer does (not how though.)

So really, there is no precedent in any of those three sources for this barring supplemental or 3rd party PnP sources and anything that might be in the new (yet unreleased) Layo handbook on the topic.

The explanation that I have always used is that a Shadow Dancer can manipulate existing shadow (which is supported by the shadow evade and shadow daze abilities) to effectively camoflague themselves. This explanation also jives with the requirement that the shadowdancer must be within a shadow, they must have material to work with.

This statement:

I could walk up to you and wave my hand right infront of your face, and chances are you would not see me. punch you in your face then hide, while your looking directly at me.

ignores the requirement that the Shadowdancer be in shadow to use HiPS.

Planar travel is not needed to explain a shadowdancer's abilities and is outside of the scope of the PrC's standard abilities.

[Acacea]

You can still spot someone if they are Hiding in Plain Sight. It is not an invisibility spell...if a spot is high enough they will still be seen, if a listen is high enough they will still be heard. They just have the ability to conceal themselves while being observed, when near any form of shadow. Under the sun at high noon, no.

[Joyrock]

you have the chance to see them but it is unlikely, just like a ghost durning the day is next to invisible .but it is unlikely, I tryed looking for the source book that speaks of shadow dancer in detail but since Layo does not have a shadow plane t ofind them would be pointless we throw the book out so to speak, and does nothing to effect how a char would RP it. I would just say it should probly be added to the next PHB for layo. as our friend posted.

[Makashi]

Going back to the original question.

My personal view is both are going to roleplay using the shadows. Fact is, if you need to be hidden, a dark place is a good idea to be in.

The shadow dancers, has a huge advantage of being able to completely hide in them, well disappear, where as a rogue who is in a room, where people may be looking his way, may not notice him, but he can't really slip away like a shadow dancer may try to. He's stuck in that corner until they turn their backs.

Plus shadow dancers can 'summon a shadow' to use to hide in. Won't see many rogues trying that one I bet.