Monstrous Submissions

[lonnarin]

Back in May 2010, a hold was placed on monstrous submissions "temporarily, until the team catches up on submissions".  All of the submissions from May 2010 seem to have been completed.  Any ETA on bringing them back?  We're at the one year anniversary.

Monstrous submissions require little extra effort to approve than any other approval.  If anything, they require even less effort, since they can say that they "came from some tribe in the woods" instead of "he came from this city at this time, check the Lore, and this event was happening there, check the lore, and so and so was the queen of this land, check the lore, and he learned elven from his fathers friend, and dwarven from his mothers uncle...".  This is much more complex than say "Tog came from the woods, he learned the way of the warriors and talks with grunts, like most orcs do".

What I also find strange is that highly complicated races like Dark elves, each of which must detail their test, how they passed, their reasoning for leaving the underdark, how they cope with being topside in an alien world, etc. are fine, but a goblin who was raised in a tribe in the woods is more complex.  The suspension does not extend to wemics or fish elves, which are very monstrous and complex in their own right.

This is not to knock the submission/approval staff.  They have a tough and thankless job, very thankless.  The stress levels of dealing with all these hurdles can be frustrating.  But when regular submissions begin to take almost a month to approve, monstrous submissions have been denied for more than half a year, and we have massive blow-outs like what happened with Silvanne, and about 1/4 of the new players who submit a new character just wander off during the process and never return, then decidedly there is a problem.

We need more staff!  Maybe the time is right for a recruitment drive to bolster numbers on that front.  We need to lower the bar!  When I first got here, maybe 6-7 years ago, I admit the bar was too low.  Right around 2005-2006 it was raised to an appropriate level, I think.  But every year since then, we have demanded more and more from our players just to start playing.  It has gotten to the point where three grown men in their 30s have to meet 3x a week for over 3 weeks to brainstorm, rough draft, edit, etc. trying to find the secret codewords just to get a battle-rager approved in less than a month.  This is a family server, children are supposed to be able to play here.  How is a kid going to make a submission without tons of outside help?  Will children have the maturity to be told "no no no no" every time they want to try to play a new game?  We've had a grown man in his 30s snap and rage-quit over this system.  

Take a look around at the server numbers.  It's basically the same 10-20 people at peek hours, with 0-4 on any time less than weekend quest prime time.  Now you might say that this is simply because the game is old, then how come other servers far less incredible than ours that shall remain nameless are hitting 40-50/64 consistently?  I will tell you why, because in order to play a game, it has become work.  In order to alleviate stress, we fret and agonize about nitpicking little things in the bios.  I write awesome bios, so I don't have to deal with most of thise stress.  Luckily I can get my non-monstrous, mundane characters approved in say, 2-3 weeks.  I still think we can do better than that.

I love this server.  It has built many fond memories over the course of over 7 years.  Please, we have to stop starving it of new players in the name of law and order and meticulous structure.  I know I make this post every year, and every year now the problem has gotten worse and worse.  I do not fault the current submission team, but rather I commend them for lasting as long as they have and working as hard as they do.  But in the end, it's equally unfair to them as it is to the players to have the bar set so high.  

In short, we could use two things.  1) a staff recruitment drive among our tiny numbers to help speed things along. and 2) to lower this bar so that people less perfect and well-written than myself can pass the very 1st step.  We also need to lift the ban on monstrous races, because it isn't the problem that they are so complex, but rather WE are being too nitpicky with the mundane races as it is.  If every submission takes weeks and weeks, then a goblin or orc is not the problem, the system as it is working now is the source of the trouble.

I commend the team currently working hard to keep this awesome world running.  Just you're working too hard over a basic process that gets harder and harder.  The higher you set the bar, the more work you make for yourselves, and the harder your job will be.  I'd rather have lots of approvals green-lighted quicker and see you people in game, playing, than making an unpaid career doing paperwork 20 hours a week.  I would rather meet lots of new players new to RP in the world than a tiny handful of seasoned veterans that survived the overly difficult obstacle course it takes to get here.  We need more staff, we need more players.  More players mean more veterans that become staff, so don't turn away the players.

You incredible people work too hard as it is.

[geloooo]

As a representative of the PC Dark Elven population, I would like to humbly request for the return of Monstrous Race Submissions so that we can have more playthings to do manual labor for us.

And yes, I wholeheartedly agree that we need more volunteers so as to help the current team. My two cents, but yeah, Ni'haer could use some more goblin scouts in his retinue.

[darkstorme]

There is currently a discussion underway regarding the re-opening of certain monstrous race submissions.  Part of the problem doesn't lie in the complexity of the submissions, despite that being the reason they were closed, but rather in the desired scarcity of monstrous PCs.

It should be very, very uncommon for a goblin to leave the tribe to go adventuring, or for an orc to do likewise - at least partially because NPC adventurers (who don't have the advantage of seeing a blue glow) would have slaughtered them before they ever made it to a bindstone.  The only thing that generally lets orcs and goblins live to a ripe old age is safety in numbers (albeit numbers that are only slightly LESS likely to slit your throat than the adventurers).

That notwithstanding, it's already under discussion - possibly closing other rare races in exchange.  Thank you for voicing your concerns, however.

[lonnarin]

Why make goblins rare when players in general are rare, though?  We 2-4 goblins logged in are only overwhelming because there's nobody else logged in on the weekday nights we play.  And those that do, they usually team up with us.  I doubt it would be any better if the goblins didn't log in, and the people watching the server list saw there was nobody to play with.

Besides, every player with a goblin has about 4-5 other characters that are more standard races.  We fix the ratio on our own.  I have a goblin, true.  But I also play a dwarf a human and an elf.

[Skabot Redwolf]

Shouldn't the players determine the race make up of the server?  Play what they want to play?  I understand wanting to keep a balanced world, but we have to remember that there are thousands and thousands of NPCs, the player character count could never unbalance the total population of the server IC.  So what's the fuss?  There might be big fun monster parties mangling english through out the realms? The dwarves already do that.  Also, on the topic of submission, some of the characters I've had with the best RP depth have come from some of the shortest submissions.  Cassius was only a paragraph submission, and he ended up perming because he vowed to never run from a fight, a purely RP reason. I'm not sure why goblins should be rare, there are several good sized tribes in close proximity to towns, and I sure the Azattans have an out reach program to re-habilitate monstrous races who have chosen to leave the tribes or have been cast off.  As for being slaughtered by NPC adventurers, they have to get in line behind bandits, those monsters still with tribes, wild animals, and farmers with pitchforks.  Certainly life is hard for the monstrous adventurer.  Luckily, monsters breed like rabbits, so there are always plenty more.  The PC monstrous adventurers are simply the ones who lived a little longer.  And of course, the misted village goblins live in semi harmony with other races, and have adventured enough to be pretty tough!  Those are pretty much my thoughts on the matter.

[Dorganath]

Just as a matter of alternate perspective (and not a policy statement), we have in the past closed monstrous submissions, and often specific monstrous submissions, because people just couldn't seem to play them as we have requested.

Dark elves are probably the most glaring example taken from the past. That's not to say we haven't had some very well-played dark elves in recent history. I can name several, in fact. For a while, however, we were getting a lot of "fluff" dark elves, and the submissions for them were problematic on all sides.

To a degree, yes, the player base should determine the population of the server. However, to use the dark elf example again, there really shouldn't be a lot of dark elves on the surface. Something similar could be said for deep dwarves.  It's also not really a matter of whether goblins should be rare.  Adventuring/PC goblins, however, would be.  They are exceptions within the race.  The culture and genetics of things like goblins and orcs does not lend itself to the same behavioral diversity of races like humans, elves or surface dwarves. Like it or not, the server in general is not well-suited for monstrous races, and we do expect certain things when RPing these races. These two factors combine in some ways that are fairly difficult for people.

The most recent closure was due more to players wanting dark elf/deep dwarf/orc/goblin/whatever bonuses and stories without actually wanting to play a dark elf/deep dwarf/orc/goblin/whatever. This mindset led to an app process that was increasingly difficult for players and approvers alike. Closing them down was the most efficient way of calming things and letting the approvers catch up and to let cool the wave of monstrous submissions that weren't really so monstrous...but rather strange looking creatures (with some nice bonuses) in need of a hug and some sympathetic PC to champion them, since (in the minds of many) we should all judge a dark elf/deep dwarf/orc/goblin/whatever by its deeds and not hold onto the prejudices against their races, no matter how well-deserved such views truly are.

Monstrous submissions have been closed for a year not so much by conscious choice but by neglect.  It's come up internally a few times, and the discussion never really concludes with any sort of decision. The reason for this has more to do with the RL and administrative happenings of the CA team more than anything. This is not to say I'm pointing blame. It's just how it is.  It's funny that you bring this up, lonnarin, because the question was raised just the other day spontaneously.  

The decision here ultimately lays in the hands of the CA team.  From my own, personal perspective, it would help them greatly if all people who would apply for a monstrous race PC when the restriction is lifted would a) understand that the process will be more difficult than Joe Fighter and Mikey the Mage, and b) you agree outright to commit to playing a dark elf/deep dwarf/orc/goblin/whatever, with all its challenges and difficulties, rather than trying to shoe-horn a tamer character concept into a dark elf/deep dwarf/orc/goblin/whatever's subrace bonuses.

Incidentally, I don't really think that anyone who has commented above would fall into the category of those more directly responsible for shutting down monstrous race submissions in the first place.

[Hellblazer]

The most recent closure was due more to players wanting dark elf/deep dwarf/orc/goblin/whatever bonuses and stories without actually wanting to play a dark elf/deep dwarf/orc/goblin/whatever. This mindset led to an app process that was increasingly difficult for players and approvers alike. Closing them down was the most efficient way of calming things and letting the approvers catch up and to let cool the wave of monstrous submissions that weren't really so monstrous...but rather strange looking creatures (with some nice bonuses) in need of a hug and some sympathetic PC to champion them, since (in the minds of many) we should all judge a dark elf/deep dwarf/orc/goblin/whatever by its deeds and not hold onto the prejudices against their races, no matter how well-deserved such views truly are.

I guess having a deity for the monsters of monsters called Az'atta is not helping in this matter....... fluffy.. loving.. redeeming.. DE can be more than a murderous bunch of savages beast kind of deity.

[Acacea]

There is a difference between "look at the blood on my hands" Az'attans and "I was always different than my evil brethren" Az'attans, which is the norm. The fact that she could ever be described as fluffy while having the most vile of followers is pretty case in point. When was the last time someone submitted a former rapist? *shrugs* Az'attans know more than anyone the terrible acts that are committed because it is the Az'attans that committed them.

[Dorganath]

No, Az'attan submissions would be something completely different, in terms of what is expected out of the RP.  However, as has been pointed out in a rather polarizing discussion on the matter, it is very difficult to correctly RP an Az'attan (especially clergy) in NWN Layonara.  So far, no one has really risen to the challenge since the present lore has been put in place.

I was specifically referring to non-Az'attan submissions, but even so, one should not assume a dark elf on the surface is Az'attan or shares some of the ideals of an Az'attan...though this is really a separate topic.  Really, the prejudices that people should have against races like dark elves should make playing an Az'attan dark elf even more difficult, since they should have to overcome those stereotypes rather than being automatically accepted...but again, this is not about how people react to dark elves but how the dark elves were conceived and played for a long time.  Shutting them down for a while and also adjusting the alignment requirements for dark elves was the best thing that happened to the quality of dark elf submissions and how the characters have been played...in my opinion.

[Hellblazer]

Really, the prejudices that people should have against races like dark elves should make playing an Az'attan dark elf even more difficult, since they should have to overcome those stereotypes rather than being automatically accepted...but again,

And this has brought many fun rp , good to have made that distinction though.

[xsweetpeaxs]

In all honestly, I like playing a monstrous race due to the simple fact that I can act nauseatingly silly with the goblins. Not so much for the bonuses. If the team decides to open the submission again, I would love to play a female goblin that does nothing but pick her nose all day... might wipe her finger on Grovel when he's not looking.

[Zoogmunch]

my ten penneth.

I agree with the restrictions if the purpose of choosing a monster is the bonuses.


I've been playing my evil orc for some time now and have  50/50 response to partying. Some i join and preach the values  (lol) of Pyrtechon in a round about way or do this by rping out of party. Other time I get asked to join party and suggest that wouldnt be good idea as lone low level folk joining Rhakt would probably finish up in his bag of bones  ( but thats part of the PvP dscussion). genrally i enjoy the trying to appear dark and his idealogy of destruction helps their ( even to others perhaps appearing as a psycho ......which of course in LG/NG terms he is.  It's all a matter of culture)


I have to say playing LE is hard. I want the character to rise through the levels but the mechanics in layo mean doing this without the run around in larger parties, mainly LG/NG,  getting decent xp (and in the gmt zone) is tough. I think you have to accept though so I wouldnt recommend LE as an only character. He has made progress but mainly via nvolvement in the dark underworld of the drow and their plans  ( secret ones so Im not telling but you'll know when we take over....the flames will rise, the world will end!!!!!  ......oh sorry got carried away).

The alternative is to allow the monstrous races but restict them to a part of the server where their culture is the norm and the "monsters" are LG and NG npc's or creatures  ..................but that would be a an alternative layo and youd need a point ( level 12 ish maybe) at which they leave to join the LG/NG   world as adventurers. That said Rhakt would gain lots more levels in quick fashion roaming a part of fire mountain in my altrantive whilst at present he couldnt visit home as his lvl 10 butt wouldnt survive long.

( confused or what?)

Zoogmunch

[Polak76]

Nice post Lonnarin.  I think you're highlighted what we've all been thinking.
Firstly to chime in, I'd like to see Char Subs down to 1 day for acceptance or reply pending on the content of the submission.  I agree the bar is way to high, especially for standard race good/neutral characters.  I also agree that many new characters would see Layo as being all too difficult to deal with and leave elsewhere.  Subs need to be managed a little more light-heartedly and with more haste.  The CA process should only encourage players to think about their character a little more and not become a knowledge test or do it our way or there is the door.  I've never had a problem with my character subs and i'll echo Lonnarin's sentiments in that we appreciate what you're doing with limited resources.  We're only asking if it can be done a little differently?

I've also been an advocate for Darkstorms post.  It should be difficutly to play any monstrous races for fear of slaughter and there shoud be no exceptions to join a good party for the sake of adventuring.  Some people mention in their descriptions "this character is heavily cloaked obscuring their identiy". This doesn't gel right with me either as it can insult other characters that have invested skill points in spot, listen and search.   I say roll a bluff check and if you fail it's all on!
For this reason to play a monstrous race shouldn't be daunting or restricted at character creation, the only problem would be once in the world they may be faced with a very boring solo world  (welcome to our world).  I will admit i've tried to make a case from tiem to time to join other good players for the sake of adventuring but they are few and far between and each time has left a bad taste in my mouth.  On the flip side and only my personal opinion, LG characters fall into this arena.  If anything i believe they'd be the hardest characters to play in the world and suffer the similar penalties.

This leads into one of my wish lists which Zoog mentioned regardind areas dedicated for specific races, allowing them to rise to a specific level.  That would be very nice but unfortunately highly unlikely.

I like Skabots post and completely agree.  So what if there are all monstrous classed PCs online.  If I were a GM I'd immediately create an NPC hunting party and go get em.  They'd love you for it!
The NPC population is always going to remain status quo unless a plot quest governs otherwise.  How cool would it be to have humans as the rare class?

If all this means more strain on CA's then I'll put my hand up for a job.  I'm sure you'll find plenty of others willing to assist the CA's so long as the bar is dropped accordingly.

Cheers,
Polak

[davidhoff]

I agree the character approval process should be lightened up to allow new blood to get in the game quick.  Once in the game other veteran players and gm's can help them to better understand Lore and RP issues.  To set the bar so high coming in can be insulting to someone who's been searching for weeks to find the right server, reading various server lores, etc....then they get here and pour their heart and soul into a sub...only to get delays and their submission nit-picked and critisized.  Most people don't like critisism, and some of these submissions/bios can be very close and personal to a new player.  These people are itching like mad just to get in and play and see our cool world.

Now, again, please, I Really, Really appreciate all the work the Character Approvers are doing.  It's one of Layo's strong points that our characters are well fleshed out and we as players understand the world we play in.  But, that can come in time, and I think most of us would rather see new players in the game quick...and then we can adopt them and counsil them once in and show them the ropes.  The good ones will stay and become better players, while those not suited to Layo will eventually leave.

I'm not exactly sure how to lighten the approval process, but if we could maybe tell new players to keep their submissions short then they will get approved faster.  I have seen where characters are approved with caveots, like "your character is approved with the understanding that (fill in the blank)".  Maybe this could be used more to keep the submission in-line with lore, but allow the player to get in game.  Maybe also, in general, just a bit less scrutiny on things not so important.  The character stable is an ok idea, but really for most, one of the neatest things about NWN's/Layo is creating a character from scratch.

Thanks again to all the work you GM's and CA's are doing!  It's the fact that we can have these kinds of conversations that is testiment about this server's quality and openness.

[Dorganath]

Nice post Lonnarin.  I think you're highlighted what we've all been thinking.
Firstly to chime in, I'd like to see Char Subs down to 1 day for acceptance or reply pending on the content of the submission.  I agree the bar is way to high, especially for standard race good/neutral characters.  I also agree that many new characters would see Layo as being all too difficult to deal with and leave elsewhere.  Subs need to be managed a little more light-heartedly and with more haste.  The CA process should only encourage players to think about their character a little more and not become a knowledge test or do it our way or there is the door.  I've never had a problem with my character subs and i'll echo Lonnarin's sentiments in that we appreciate what you're doing with limited resources.  We're only asking if it can be done a little differently?

I agree the character approval process should be lightened up to allow new blood to get in the game quick.  Once in the game other veteran players and gm's can help them to better understand Lore and RP issues.  To set the bar so high coming in can be insulting to someone who's been searching for weeks to find the right server, reading various server lores, etc....then they get here and pour their heart and soul into a sub...only to get delays and their submission nit-picked and critisized.  Most people don't like critisism, and some of these submissions/bios can be very close and personal to a new player.  These people are itching like mad just to get in and play and see our cool world.

If it's a matter of new people itching to get in, there is a very, very simple way to do so...and this has been said a lot.

Make a simple character.

That's it.  

People come to this world expecting Forgotten Realms.  We're not Forgotten Realms.  I know this is one of the biggest problems in coming here. We're our own thing. It's the uniqueness and richness of lore that many here say is a big asset, yet when we tell people that the FR-style lore they're trying to bring in on their characters is wrong, we're somehow bad?  I've seen a lot of this supposed "new blood" come in with very, very interesting character concepts that just don't fit.  People complain about having so much to learn for this world, and it's true to a degree, but that's all the more reason to make a simple character and learn the world like many of us did....through first-hand experience.

Honestly, it would be so much nicer for everyone if people would give primary thought to their character's personalities rather than building up a back-story for one's character that has them with abilities far beyond that of a Level 1 adventurer by age 15.   Fighters who have, for example, slain an entire tribe of goblins single-handedly in their teens, or Wizards who just start casting spells at a young age without any studying or training...stuff like this gets critiqued and rejected, and rightly so in my opinion.  I get it though...it's to show capability...skills above those of a "normal" person at their age...but it goes too far. Other problems come in combinations of things that don't combine well or at all.

For most cases, there is absolutely no need for a complex character submission. Pouring one's heart and soul into a character, especially someone's first character here, is really not necessary.  Yes, I know the applications are scrutinized, but honestly, the simpler ones still go through much, much faster.

Having said this, I have a request.

Can we please keep this focused on the question of monstrous race  submissions and not let it degenerate into another "what's wrong with  the CA process" thread?

And on the question of monstrous races, it's already been said that we're looking at things again, and that the reasons for such a long delay have had much to do with RL issues and simple neglect of the issue. It is not by policy that monstrous race submissions have been closed for a year; it is just what happened.  So please, don't think we're doing this just to keep everyone "down".  It's just not true at all.