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Author Topic: Multiclass at lvl 19 is ok?  (Read 394 times)

davidhoff

Multiclass at lvl 19 is ok?
« on: July 28, 2009, 05:48:47 pm »
Hi,

I was hoping to multiclass Tralek as a fighter starting at level 19 and go fighter from 19-23.  I have started his training and CDT, but after reading Trouble Tempest's multiclass thread...I'm not sure if I can do that or not.

I know there is a rule that says you have to take five (5) levels of a class before 20.  I asked Twidget about that, and he seemed to think that as long as I kept my CDT, trained with some fighters, got some testimonials, and roleplayed it....then I could possibly take fighter levels starting at 19 if approved.

Before I train anymore and attempt to make a class change at level 19, I'd like some official guidance on this.

Please let me know if this would be possible.

Regards,

Davidhoff
 

ShiffDrgnhrt

Re: Multiclass at lvl 19 is ok?
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2009, 05:51:32 pm »
As long as I've been here, the "5 levels before 20" rule has not been negotiable.  Might just want to work on the task of reaching level 21.  It will give you plently of time to work with Tralek on becoming a fighter through RP.
 

ShiffDrgnhrt

Re: Multiclass at lvl 19 is ok?
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2009, 05:54:42 pm »
From the "Rule Book"
Quote from: Layonara Char. Submission Rules - Rowana
Classes
 The mechanical classes of Layonara have several wide interpretations and some have very specific needs. Most standard character classes do not require anything in the way of justifying the choice of class over some other in the character submission. As such, a detailed justification for a particular class is an optional thing, and we will not overly scrutinize them, excepting for very obvious glaring issues (I.E. a submission where a sorcerer studies his magic rather then innately acquires it or a level one fighter is taking on whole mobs of orcs on his own, etc).
 
 Clerics and paladins however, must give their stated commitments in their biographies and we would still like them to make clear in their biographies their respect for their deity's dogma and/or organization.
 
 Druids also have their own submission requirements, and we would like to have any druid players read the druid information page.
 
 Additionally, applications asking for dual classes are not expected to include more then what a single class of the same would require. Resubmissions to add a second or third class after initial approval (excepting druid, paladin, cleric or monk) need only be a resubmitted biography with a few additional lines explaining the IC reasoning. Resubmission to add druid, paladin, cleric or monk (especially if the starting class was monk or druid to begin with and a character is returning to this class) hold the same requirements and stipulations as above with potential extra requirements (such as CDQ, CDT or other need).
 
 If you have a character with multiple classes, you must have 5 levels minimum in each class before level 20 (e.g. You cannot have a level 3 rogue, level 17 fighter, you need at least 5 rogue)
 
 Monk, Paladin and Druid classes have restricted multi-classing.
 

Thunder Pants

Re: Multiclass at lvl 19 is ok?
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2009, 06:05:46 pm »
well to be fair, those rules were written when the max character level was 20, and were mostly enacted to stop power builds that made no sense where a few class levels were taken to obtain their level 1 bonus's (before the rules were enacted there was a character who was level 18 sorc, level 1 paladin {for the charisma bonus to saves}, level 1 monk {for evasion})

While i do still see the reason for the rule, i fail to see why it's cutoff point should still be level 20.
 

ycleption

Re: Multiclass at lvl 19 is ok?
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2009, 06:22:57 pm »
After level 20, saves and attack bonus all progress the same regardless of base class. For that reason, certain builds rely on multiclassing before level 20 to maximize saves or attack bonus, or to achieve certain abilities or feats that only need 1 or 2 levels of a class. The level 5 requirement before level 20 prevents those kinds of builds.
 

LordCove

Re: Multiclass at lvl 19 is ok?
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2009, 07:17:44 pm »
*points to the above*

As printed above.

My request for Trouble was to determine the "form" of multi-classing which would take place and the rules applied to it.

For Druids... Multi-classing is .. not so much strict... but its difficult to go from one extreme to another. I needed to know the way in which it would take place ( would he have to rebuild as Ranger ( in which case the 5 level rule wouldn't apply )  / be able to use his Druidic powers once taking Ranger beyond 20 / or be unable to use them ... ect...ect )

I believe the same restrictions on Multi-classing come into play for Monks and Paladins also.
 

twidget658

Re: Multiclass at lvl 19 is ok? ~ Flagged for Dorg or Row
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2009, 07:58:33 pm »
I feel that the rule was to prevent people taking 3 levels in rogue for certain skills and then finishing up with fighter levels never revisiting the rogue levels, for example. During the growth of your PC, if all of a sudden you feel he has went down another path, you should be able to take that path. There will be stipulations, if approved.
 
 I flagged this for Dorganath and/or Rowana to give the official rule. The best course of action would be to submit for the class and wait for the ruling.
 
 
Quote
Before I train anymore and...

 
 If he is to multiclass and get approved, then he needs to be doing the training. If the official word is that he cannot take fighter levels at level 19 and you stop training him as fighter, then it shows that you do not want him to be a fighter. If that is the case, then we can go ahead and end it now and say no.
 

SteveMaurer

Re: Multiclass at lvl 19 is ok?
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2009, 08:15:28 pm »
Quote from: Thunder Pants
well to be fair, those rules were written when the max character level was 20, and were mostly enacted to stop power builds that made no sense where a few class levels were taken to obtain their level 1 bonus's (before the rules were enacted there was a character who was level 18 sorc, level 1 paladin {for the charisma bonus to saves}, level 1 monk {for evasion}).

The thing is - AD&D already has a mechanism to prevent this from being abusive: reduced XP from spreading yourself too thinly.   If you multiclass as a Level 1 Monk, Level 1 Paladin, and then go up the Sorcerer route, it's almost exactly like having an increased ECL just like some non-human races that have special bonuses but pay for it with slower XP progression.

And if your PC avoids this by managing to survive as a Sorcerer up to level 18, and then take the Paladin route, then they're just giving up ninth level spells for the sake of a save bonus.


Quote from: ycleption
After level 20, saves and attack bonus all progress the same regardless of base class. For that reason, certain builds rely on multiclassing before level 20 to maximize saves or attack bonus, or to achieve certain abilities or feats that only need 1 or 2 levels of a class. The level 5 requirement before level 20 prevents those kinds of builds.

What this means, though, is that one of the advantages that Humans are supposed to have in AD&D - improved multiclassing - is worthless in Layonara.   Not to mention that most of these supposed advantages can easily be imitated with items.

Now, all that said, Layonara is a good solid world.   And I particularly enjoy the fact that Leanthar and Ed are perfectly fearless in going against AD&D cannon.  (Destroying all the half-races?  Wow!)    But anyone who looks extremely closely at AD&D itself will realize that it's not quite as unbalanced as many people believe, and that many supposedly "abusive" builds aren't quite as abusive after you account for the XP you need for them in a low-XP world.
 

Dorganath

Re: Multiclass at lvl 19 is ok? ~ Flagged for Dorg or Row
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2009, 08:18:14 pm »
The rule is as stated, and it is specifically to prevent the power-builds by taking 1-2 levels in a single class just to get all the immediate class benefits, be they Rogue levels, fighter levels or what have you.

Everyone is held to the same rules, and no exceptions have been made for anyone with any stipulations whatsoever as far as I know.

There's also the "five in-a-row after 20" rule that governs post-Epic multiclassing, something which my main character just got done with after taking the Spellsword PrC at level 26.

That said, Tralek can certainly put in the request with the understanding that he can't take fighter levels until he reaches 21st level, so that once he gets there, he's pre-approved, and his RP and development can show a steady progression toward being a Fighter.

EDIT:

@SteveMaurer: True, but we add this requirement on top of what D&D 3rd Ed. already balances so that multiclassing is a commitment, not just  something you do for a boost.  However, remember that not all races (human, half-elves) have multi-classing penalties.

EDIT 2:  

@Anyone: This would not be the time to get into a debate about whether multiclassed characters are stronger or weaker. ;)
 

davidhoff

Re: Multiclass at lvl 19 is ok? ~ Flagged for Dorg or Row
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2009, 08:24:58 pm »
I understand Twidget.  Tralek has not stopped his training.  He's got three lessons under his belt and has been fighting with his greatsword quite extensively on all of his travels.  He will continue to train and better himself as a fighter; that's the way I've been playing him all along.

I'll get his CDT furthered and continue with his training and make my official submission and respectully wait for the team's answer.

Regards,

Tralek

//Edit: After seeing Dorganath's reply, I see that I can not take fighter levels until level 21.  Perfectly understandable and I agree with the rules as stated.  Tralek will continue with his swordplay and will have plenty of time after level 20 to decide his future...whether it be mage, fighter, or ....*smiles*
 

ShiffDrgnhrt

Re: Multiclass at lvl 19 is ok? ~ Flagged for Dorg or Row
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2009, 08:28:20 pm »
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