Pawn Shops

[Guardian 452]

A wipe is just that a clean wipe no exclusions. Otherwise you just put the problem in place from the get go. Remember if everyone else is broke too you wont have to pay 2,000 for a box of corn or purple mushrooms. More like 200 maybe... then watch the economy get back on its feet.

[Guardian 452]

Do you know how many people just cringed? *winks*

But you are right. It wouldn't be anything more than a band-aid.  The economy in-game is fundamentally flawed, so a bottom-up redesign of the economy AND a gold/bank wipe would be necessary.

I bet a lot of people cringed.. LOL! GOOD !!! Maybe some will even post how they feel on the issue that clearly will affect everyone rather then sit on there hands and gripe once a decission is made.

A little shake up never hurt anyone and I can guarantee this world would not go belly up in the aftermath. Im just not positive it is the solution.

It would take a mixture of, gold wipe, and gold drop adjustments, both up and down (several of them) to see how things go after the wipe. I still see some getting money far easier than others.... you know what? Kinda mimics Real Life dont it? LOL

.

[gilshem ironstone]

For the record, I am for a gold drop, elimination of pawn shops, and tweaking gold drops.  A brave new world, but it could be good!

[RollinsCat]

You want a reaction?

Please don't wipe my gold.  There.

I think the pawn shops dedicated to lower levels were a great idea, a good start.  I have no problem with that.  Making all crafting items that are not a finished items one gold (looking at you, jewel crafting) would be good.  Putting limits on how many of the same item you can sell in a give time period (ten of XXX then cut off for an hour) would be good if it's possible.  After all what does a pawn shop need with fifteen lutes anyway?

But please don't wipe my gold.  Being higher level means nothing in terms of Andrew's earning potential; he could be forty and still need a group to do anything.   He can still be killed by red light goblins.  And he's far from alone in that.  There are plenty of high level characters who can't bid ten thousand gold on an item, let alone a million.  

*slices his mattress open and stuffs his True in it before sewing the mattress back up*

[Guardian 452]

You want a reaction?


*slices his mattress open and stuffs his True in it before sewing the mattress back up*

LOL everyone get out their mason jars, fill them with money and bury them in the back yard.

For the record Im for a wipe, but I dont see it being the solution. I like the pawns shops that wont sell to high levels...untill on said high level and I want to sell crafting leftovers (vials etc) then it's just annoying so I throw the things away.

As RollinCat said due to class imbalance many will have it tougher than others. But I will leave the class imbalance for another thread. Oh wait this thread was about pawn shops.. not a gold wipe... so I guess its already been derailed.

[merlin34baseball]

Gold wipe?!???!!!???

Huh! I barely get to play once a week, and you are suggesting taking the gold that has taken me years, YES YEARS, to accumulate? (oh and I do mean RL YEARS) You'd be killing the part time players right off. People with more play time have a WAY easier time accumulating gold. Due to what? Oh, due to having way more play time to accumulate expensive drops from monsters and selling them, and collecting WAY more CNR to sell for credit or coins cause they can hit the CNR everyday. It takes me weeks to collect a box of CNR to sell...............

So.... I guess if you want to lose more part time players, wipe the gold right out of everyone's bank accounts, then watch the full time players get way rich again while the part time players are again put behind the 8 ball, with inferior equipment and no way to afford anything better.

And pawn shops? They're useless for the casual player. They never can afford to buy a single thing. I gave up years ago even clicking on them because after a reset 9 bazillion enchanted fire opals are sold to every pawn shop on Layo, making them all useless until the next reset, well... and I can't log on right after a reset, so therefore I can sell... nothing to a pawn shop!

Sounds reasonable.

My 60,000 Trues.

[RollinsCat]

Merlin, I think it's hypothetical at this point, a suggestion in the context of the pawn shop issue that comes around every few months it seems.  I interpret Dorg's response to mean it's not on the table, just part of the discussion.

in regards to not being able to sell to pawns though and having a lot of crafting items in inventory, in addition to donating the items to temples for reduced costs in healing, what about a "crafting donation" system?  Donate your materials or items to a craft guy for reduced cost on the craft vendors?  that's an indirect way to make some gold (spending less on those tanning acids).

[merlin34baseball]

Eh *shrugs*

Just giving a reaction....

[Nehetsrev]

[ramble]
 
 All my character's have worked very hard for the money and gear they've acquired, so I'm totally against a wipe at this point.  I don't really think it would help the economy in any way either.  The disparity exists between rich and poor because some have more time to go grind kills for their money than others, and because some have clicks they're part of that allow them to team up more regularly than others to hit areas where more money and better items drop.
 
 I say leave things as they are and be satisfied with what you earn in the time you do have to play.  Try to develop good partying relationships with as many different groups of people that you can because generally such groups look out for eachother and help eachother get the gear they need, or the money to buy said gear.  Prices for items can only be as high as people are willing to pay for them.  There will -always- be someone with more money to spend.  I say let them spend it and enjoy their purchase.  The next time that pricey item comes up there'll likely be one less person in the market for it (because they've already got one of those), and even if they do want another their funds may have been exhausted enough from their previous purchase to keep them from getting in your way the second time round.
 
 I might also add that in the past year or so, a lot of prices for items have come down quite a bit and become more affordable.  Though low-level characters can still have a rough time gathering the cash they need to gear up fully.  New static quests in Center and a couple other places do help alleiviate some of the grind at lower levels, but not all of it.  On the other hand, sometimes with lower level characters once you've got that first iron weapon you can take your time saving up and maybe skip some of the weapon upgrades and enchantments for a few levels and save yourself some cash by not buying every upgrade as it becomes available.  If you travel with groups, you're likely not going to be terribly disadvantaged even with what might seem like obsolete gear because you'll have people watching your back (of course that means you have to watch their backs too a bit).
 
 Bottom line, don't take away my True!  Some of us have spent real-life years earning what we have now.  Don't be envious and ruin it for us, just work hard and you'll get there some day too.  (This coming from someone who has only one character that has much money, and the rest stay near-broke most of the time.)
 
 [/ramble]

[jrizz]

This is true...that is unless everyone would accept a bank/gold wipe.

I don't think a gold wipe is needed. There are enough actions going on to reduce the gold in the system. As an example Chongo's last auction which took something like 3 million true out of the system, the proceeds went to charity. If we eliminate the one main thing that floods the system with true, the pawnshops, attrition will take care of much of the rest.

And pawn shops? They're useless for the casual player. They never can  afford to buy a single thing. I gave up years ago even clicking on them  because after a reset 9 bazillion enchanted fire opals are sold to every  pawn shop on Layo, making them all useless until the next reset,  well... and I can't log on right after a reset, so therefore I can  sell... nothing to a pawn shop!

This is exactly my point. Every server re-set floods the system with a massive amount of true and very fast.

The disparity exists between rich and poor because some have more time  to go grind kills for their money than others, and because some have  clicks they're part of that allow them to team up more regularly than  others to hit areas where more money and better items drop.
 

Very little true comes from a group out hunting. Normally not even enough to cover the healing used. Yes a lot of true comes from the sale of drop goods but that is only because there is so much true in the system that people can bid huge amounts for rare items.

 Making all crafting items that are not a  finished items one gold (looking at you, jewel crafting) would be good.   Putting limits on how many of the same item you can sell in a give time  period (ten of XXX then cut off for an hour) would be good if it's  possible.  After all what does a pawn shop need with fifteen lutes  anyway?

A great suggestion and inline with something that has already started to work well. I think greatly reducing the going price for crafted items at pawnshops would be a good addition to the above suggestion.

We should do a calculation based on the number of pawn shops and their levels how much true gets dumped into the system with every re-boot. Anyone know how many pawnshops of each type there are?

[Acacea]

[commentary on the derail]

I think you will find that some of your more negative reactions to such suggestions are born of what appear to be some pretty negative attitudes towards those that have acquired whatever, as if only those who have ill-gotten wealth would ever be opposed to a wipe. I think it is rather the opposite - many of the players that are still here - rather than "here again" or "here now and then" - have acquired what they have over many years, not from visiting some kind of imaginary slot machines. I also see an attitude that shows up in many places and from different people, that seems to hint that because someone's character has less than another, it is somehow worthy of more praise. Not that this is strictly the intent, but it really does kind of come off like, "My character is more flawed than your character... powergamer." and "My character is more broke than your character... money-hoarder." My level 37 died with diamonds on. What's your point?

Additionally, suggesting that those who don't weigh in against an idea are merely going to sit on their hands and complain later can surely only lead to an outpouring of complaints... because we do tend to say what we think, rather than not...whether or not it really falls in line with the thread topic.

Lastly, the ability of one character vs another to earn items or gold outside of a party is not automatically a discussion for "class imbalance." There are a hundred ways to build up different classes and some playstyles favor different numbers. Those who need to lean heavily on others in combat are probably worth their weight in skills on quests, so talking like things have to even out mechanically or it is broken beyond repair just sort of gives the wrong impression.

I realize this is not strictly on topic, but I feel like the kinds of comments that get thrown around easily here can only lead to 1) a negative push-back and 2) more of the same in yes-man form. Let's chill out with the strong-yet-casually-thrown opinions when talking suggestions. We can suggest drastic things objectively and without implications, I think. I think we should take that and apply it not just to this discussion, but to all the others we get going on.

[/commentary on the derail]

[jrizz]

A great suggestion and inline with something that has already started to work well. I think greatly reducing the going price for crafted items at pawnshops would be a good addition to the above suggestion.

On second thought that only slows down the flow of true into the system from the pawnshops.

[Hellblazer]

This is sarcastic a little so not to take in a bad way :p

But with the type of engine that runs the game, there's not much that can be really done let alone;
1- send all the pawnshops to the pyre
2- reduce all the drops to 1 gold
3- stop all items from being included in the drops (instead make them craftable.. ouch.. more expense for the character.. that's the point no?)
4- only have crafting materials as items in the drop, and none of the one that are on sale.
5- have a periodic bank robber go through the accounts and take out 10% of an account (ie governments, local taxes for houses etc).

*takes up his shield for the coming tomatoes*

[Guardian 452]

Being able to only sell so many of an item to a pawner would work. Would this be an honor system thing? Cause adding code I would add lag?

Lowering the price the pawners give for things would help. If they are paying out less their bank roll should in theory last longer right?

The side issue I see is with the crafter.... They have a hard time keeping their heads above water as it is after paying for all the crafting items and tools, tools and more tools. And we all know the demand will never meet supply of crafted items as long as items last forever. So that leaves people who truly enjoy crafting to sell items at a loss on the pawns if they are lowered more yet.

So....... can a balance be found?  That would be the goal *nods*

[lonnarin]

The trick is to deal with exploiters as they come along, and not collectively punish the entire server.  And to quit caring about how some people may be richer than others.  Just like the broken economy of real life, some worker ants may survive long winters that playful grasshoppers do not.  Other wolves may be stronger and more battle ready than the pups born with less profound physical attributes than their brothers of the same litter.  Sometimes people in your own workforces irl seem to excel through less effort than the unsung heroes who grind and toil on the frontline, sacrificing their weekends and after hours for little compensation while their coworkers get bonuses and paid vacations.  And sometimes fortune smiles on fools while fate hands the well-planned and thought investors a big goose egg and bankruptcy for their efforts.  Such is life and economics, both in game and outside of it.  Only one thing remains certain of inequality, however; the more one seeks to balance all things artificially to redistribute wealth, the greater the potential there is for conflict and instability all around.  History has proven this time and time again.

Please note that my thoughts on this subject do not reflect the team as a whole, and are merely my observations on all things economic.

[Dorganath]

Everybody.....

Take a step back.

I am in no way stating there will be a gold wipe.  And if there was a gold drop, shops would not be excluded.  To say that any group would be excluded for any reason is ludicrous, as if a gold wipe became necessary it would be because the system was so flawed that any remedy to truly, truly fix it would require everyone to start out on a level playing field.

I am going to try to be clear on something that's really important.

Pawn shops are not the problem in the economy.

Neither are gold drops.

There are three major factors that contribute to the broken-ness of this system:

1) NWN's single-currency system
2) Very few gold sinks
3) Players

Yes, I went there.  Players.  Guess what? If players didn't rush pawn shops with loads of {insert favorite pawned item here...you all know which one I'm talking about} after every reset, there wouldn't be an issue, would there?  At the core, it is player behavior that causes pawn shops to deplete. Why? Not because players are unloading their spare junk for a few coins but because they're unloading items that happen to pay pretty well for the purpose of gaining more gold. It is this player behavior that causes issues for the lower-level characters who actually need those few coins from junk a lot more than the people who can go where the monsters drop larger piles of gold or who have mastered Demon Cards or whatever.

I'm not saying this with any malice, but player behavior is not a factor that can be overlooked.  Incidentally, I don't expect anything to come of me saying this  I've said it before, and the problems continue.

But, let me go hypothetical here.

Suppose we did all these things suggested.  Suppose we lowered the gold drops, adjusted merchants, adjusted pawns and fixed a few other seemingly unlimited sources of gold. Suppose we did all that.  What we'd have is a system that might work a lot better overall, but we'd have people and groups who were both beneficiaries of the previously flawed system and those who were victims of the same flawed system.  There would still be this massive divide between who has the gold and who doesn't, and in fact, in such a situation, gold would become more valuable than it is now (which is arguably both extremely valuable and completely worthless, depending on who you are).

In that hypothetical situation, it would only make sense to level the playing field. It wouldn't matter if you were the poorest or richest person on the server. It wouldn't matter if your store pays people to gather or if you have to scrape for every coin. I say this as one of those people whose characters would probably suffer...not because any of my characters have much gold, but because they don't...nor do they seek it

Guardian can maybe correct me if I'm wrong, but the item wipe was to fix a pretty serious problem, yes?  Adjusting the sources of gold/items only addresses part of the problem. To really fix things, sometimes more extreme measures are required. Incidentally, by "wipe" I mean more like cutting things off at a particular maximum. For instance, maybe all bank accounts would have no more than 1000 True each. If it came to a wipe, we wouldn't leave you all with nothing, but it would have to be realistic.

But as I said, I'm not seriously considering a gold wipe.  You can all calm down and stop thinking of places to hide it (though I know how to find them, just so you know). You can stop fretting about the injustice of it all or how it will cause hardship or whatever. It's not in the plans, and even if we started to go down that path, I would give you all a chance to change market dynamics on your own.

Remember my list above.  We can put blame on the pawn shops or gold drops or Demon Cards all we want, but we are all part of the system too, and our collective actions helped make the system as it is today. Our collective actions can change it.

Food for thought...

[Guardian 452]

It was a long time ago the item wipe... I know we got to keep anything we had equipped. Everything else they set up a pawner that payed a very high price for that had no limit of money. So that right there set some people up as rich. I really dont remember the true reason for the item wipe and I was a GM at the time *embarrased smile* but it was several years ago in my defense.

You are 100% correct in the biggest issue is the players. Heck I sell things to the broker simply cause they are worth a lot. For what it's worth I seek out... out of the way pawners. And something Shiny always comes up and im broke again... LOL.

Really the amount of money any person here has doesnt concern me... hence why I was saying I was in favor of a gold wipe. And why each time I said I was in favor of it I said... I dont think it would help. because it all comes back to us players. We will just find another way to become the best, fastest, richest, etc. Its in our nature.

back to the Pawn Shops though if I may. I wouldnt think recucing what they pay for things when I say this I mean the things they pay too much for like the opals etc. But go about it in the other direction... reducing the value of known exploited items. Cause we can do that... we have the technology.

[Zoogmunch]

ah, the age old problem of capitalism!


well my ten penneth is to agree with the last suggestion from Hellblazer and re-introduce daylight robbery. Eg, many years ago I used to rp with some friends in a sci fi/ space game ( evn forget its name) and in game i played a space merchant. I did some nifty negotiating and started picking up just 5% of everyones loot in game. I no time at all i owned my own spaceship, heavy armour, deadly ray gun and an antigrav belt ( but dont call me Luke ok and i dont know any bloke called Anakin). anyways i was obviously too big for my boots and the friendly Gm had a group of hi tech thieves pinch me belt, clear my accounts and blow up my spaceship to cover tracks  ( wipes a tear remembering the glory of it all)

I learnt a valuable lesson.  How about the thieves guild geting a list of the 50 wealthiest and having a go at relieving them of their lolly. If it become a decent quest storyline I'll even try for my first rogue character to help out.

p.s. If I succed can the DM's foregt that bit about checking up on me and spending any ill gotten loot please, I'm after having a level 6 rogue with a palace, harem, servants, carriages oh oh oh and a golden dagger and and........................


just a thought! it might be fun

Zoogmunch