auctions must stop

[jrizz]

My comments are inline

ZeroVega - 12/24/2005  3:24 PM   First off, I'll update ZeroVega's Rough Pricing Guide later tonight with the price of some raw CNR materials. They'll be my prices and if I get X number of PMs from people that think they need to be raised/lowered, I'll do so.
 

 I think that will help a lot.
 

 Second, the reason some people know about the "system" and some don't. Is because they're GMs or content team members. The new system is simple. It does not favor one person over another, rather it will help to keep the economy in check based on the research and discussions the GM and Content Teams have had. (We've had a lot of input from players and have taken it into account)
  Third, it sounds like you don't want auctions but you do want lower/mid levels to still be able to find and sell the gems, is that correct?
 

 If there is a random rare gem system it should pertain to all MM(s). That is all I am saying.
 

 Fourth, and finally... I do not feel at liberty to say what the system is, I leave that up to Leanthar if he feels like disclosing it. All I can say is it's not some uber conspiracy to keep the low levels down and raise the high levels up even higher.
 

 I am sure there is no conspiracy about it, I am only pointing out the facts of how this will affect players. Of course not knowing what the new system is I can only guess and based on these guesses I have produced a line of thinking (arguments) that projects the most likely outcome. 
  Remember at the base of all of this is a system that is setup to produce inflation in a textbook sense. Money comes from nowhere with no real value behind it. So to counter this you must set up a structure where the amount of gold in circulation is not of issue. What must be of issue is how things are valued. A set price guide for ALL items (set within a range to allow haggeling and return customer discounts) is a must, not just for low and mid end items. This means no more auctions should be allowed. This would solve the rare gem issue, set a price on them and that is it (no more 100k emeralds), you dont have to restrict how they are found.
 

 Merry Christmas! ZV,

[jrizz]

ZeroVega - 12/24/2005  3:29 PM  Reading jrizz most recent post I feel it's important for me to point out, that is was infact players who made the economy what it is (I'm a player and I take responsibility too). It was players who mass produced items (namely bows), sold them to pawn shops, and flooded the market with gold, and they were players who first started bidding for items and throwing out large ammounts of gold. There have been complaints from both sides for and against certain things and it has come to the attention of Leanthar and the Team that it's gotten out of hand, thus steps are being taken to correct it...
  In short, players had the power from the beginning, many did not use the power to keep themselves in check, so we're doing it.

Well said! we as players need to remember that legislation is a last resort and rarely meets everyones expectaions.

[Etinfall]

jrizz - 12/24/2005  5:45 PM

I am sure there is no conspiracy about it, I am only pointing out the facts of how this will affect players. Of course not knowing what the new system is I can only guess and based on these guesses I have produced a line of thinking (arguments) that projects the most likely outcome. 

I have been trying to think of a response to this....again I can only sat WOW!!

[jrizz]

Etinfall - 12/24/2005  6:09 PM

jrizz - 12/24/2005  5:45 PMI am sure there is no conspiracy about it, I am only pointing out the facts of how this will affect players. Of course not knowing what the new system is I can only guess and based on these guesses I have produced a line of thinking (arguments) that projects the most likely outcome. 

I have been trying to think of a response to this....again I can only sat WOW!!

What is leaving you speechless here. It is a simple projection that if the chance for finding rare gems is restriced in some way that negativly affects low to mid levels you set up a structure that supports the powerful. But that is beyond the point the real challenge is setting up a structure that promotes RP and craft trade. I have seen some great suggetions about restrictions on how many crafts a character can take and there have been many other good suggestions of the like. Yes these are things that would affect all players, that is the way to make change. restricting the number of crafts a character can take is one of the best ones I heard in support of good RP and craft trade. Say 3 is the number, well if I want to make bows and arrows then smelting, tinkering, and wood could be taken but I would have to trade for sandpaper and bow strings. 

[Gulnyr]

jrizz - 12/24/2005  9:29 PM  What is leaving you speechless here. It is a simple projection that if the chance for finding rare gems is restriced in some way that negativly affects low to mid levels you set up a structure that supports the powerful.

[Acacea]

I'm pretty sure it's understood that you're speculating and offering arguments against what you feel are likely outcomes, I'm just not sure to what purpose. While I've been termed argumentative, I'm also pretty lazy- so arguing about a system I know jack about, before it is even implemented, is beyond me.  

Most of the things I would say have already been said.

-Lots of people don't find gems/jackpots, and do just fine.

-A lot of high levels can't go most places by themselves.

-Low/mid level characters can handle tough challenges with thought and cooperation.

-A lot of must-have items become less critical when the brains are used.

-When they are needed, it's not-at-all hard to gather money. My character has some neat unnecessary toys and is usually flat broke; should she find something she really needs- like resistances, someday (currently level 14. Har.)- it's not difficult to save money without selling off some of her things.

Although from the amount of characters DT(ing) out it is clear that the balance is a little off, I am sure it will be worked out.

The planning and using the brains also helps greatly for this. If there's a failure in "the system," there, it's that the vague threat of permadeath hovering in the distance does not deter people from repeatedly rushing and dying- there is no fear or even a bland dislike of death. It's just a part of your well balanced breakfast, at this point. I don't want my friends (or my character) to die a final time, and I certainly know that not all tokens are from a complete disregard for death or stupidity, but I'm not sure how just getting up, forever and ever and ever and ever... makes for a balanced system. Lots of people try the survival tactic. It's a good one. Try it out.  (Still working the bugs out of that one for myself...)

[Leanthar]

"...The planning and using the brains also helps greatly for this. If there's a failure in "the system," there, it's that the vague threat of permadeath hovering in the distance does not deter people from repeatedly rushing and dying- there is no fear or even a bland dislike of death..."
  Precisely!! And that is no fault of anybody but the player playing that character--pure and simple. Players know it is there (the DT system) but if they choose to disregard the DT's until it becomes threatening then it is their fault--not the system, nor the GM's, nor the high level players that seem be targeted by jrizz.

[Vyris]

I found an emerald with a character of mine, and it pertty well destroyed the story I had in mind for my character. I was excited when I found it, happy when I sold it, I was pleased with the house and equipment I had bought with the sale, and if completely went against everything I'd built around the character. I liked that character, I rarely play him anymore, I lament the relationships that he has/had with other characters that have been neglected because for me, the character is messed up, I wish I'd never found that nugget.

Theres two ways to think of something like an emerald, one is as an express lane to riches and power. You'll only get one, riches and items don't make the character. The other way is more of a realistic expectation. Emeralds are not formed in tin, copper, greenstone, etc. Emeralds are formed in granite, mostly around hot springs, and only in a few specific places in the world. You would have a better chance of finding an emerald digging in sand near a volcanic lake, than you would mining metal.

As far as it being tipped to favor high level players, well... yeah, you can't even use the end product untill a minimum of level 16, and a master gem crafter is going to be involved in there somewhere as well, as well as a master enchanter. Those people are the players that those products are intended for.

I think your expectations are a bit skewed, to put your point into contrast it kinda seems like you saw someone drive by in a new Jaguar, heard they got lucky and found a multimillion dollar lotery ticket in the gutter, and your mad because the city passed an ordinance to keep the streets cleaner.

All you need to succeed on Layonara is a few friends who are willing to play as part of a team, not individuals who happen to be together for a while, and a plan. Theres not a single epic level player that got to where they are because of emerald jewelry, or massive bank accounts. They got there because they have friends, and played with a plan.

Vyris

[Dorganath]

jrizz and anyone else,
  Just a bit of friendly advice: It's probably not a good thing to start making assumptions about things that have not been formally announced or even implemented.  Aragon jumped the gun a bit on mentioning mystery minerals, but not by much.  When it is put into the game, and it should be in soon, the details will be described publicly and plainly, and for anything that is unclear, the community will be able to ask questions about it and have them answered plainly. For now, I can only tell you that the new system will apply to everyone, and there will be no preferences based on level for what is returned from washing a mystery mineral.  The system will be fair across the board, and it will make sense....more sense, in fact, than the current system.
  I'll also mention that it was requested by Leanthar specifically and the details were worked out through group discussions, and even altered from its original concept for reasons of balance.
  This isn't something meant to favor the "haves" as you put it but rather try to rebalance an economic force that has been hugely unbalancing in the world's economy. Emeralds washed from mystery minerals found in greenstone or copper are hugely destabilizing to the economy of Layonara.  It has made "haves" out of "have nots" and done so quickly. Not everyone has found an emerald in such a manner, and not everyone who is a "have" has become so by finding one.  To be quite honest, it is a little condescending for you to categorize things as such and to imply that somehow the GM Team is intentionally trying to favor those who have already amassed wealth, power or both.
  You seem to be convinced already that this system will negatively impact low-to-mid level characters, so probably nothing that can or will be said here will change your mind.  And I suppose from a certain perspective it will, though in reality it will impact everyone.  But then, a collapsed economy will negatively impact everyone...so take your pick.
  However, I present something for you to consider in all this.  Low-to-mid level characters have absolutely no real use or need for emeralds except to go from poor to rich in a single day. Jewelry made from emeralds cannot even be worn until the upper (pre-epic) levels. It's rather sad that players feel that they have to "keep up with the Jones'" in terms of money, housing and equipment, that as a low-to-mid level character there's a lack of patience to achieve what the higher level characters have spent many RL months, even years, working to amass.  That's really not what things are all about here.
  I'm just speechless on the DT comments...but others have addressed them already so I'll leave it at that.
  Understand that what we do, we do for the good of the community as a whole, not just some small fraction thereof.  Of all the comments above, the ones that resonnate the loudest are those that speak to the responsibility of the players themselves. 

[jrizz]

ok *hands up in the air* I surrender to the hive mind you have convinced me that restricting how these rare gems come into exsistance is a good thing for the players and the system. I even retract the DT comment in light of the post from L, I have to agree with him that the owness of DTing out is solely on the shoulders of the player, the fact that there have been so many latley is due to careless playing as many of you have stated. Back to the gems, it will be refreshing to see an end to the emerald auctions, as I am sure we have now estabilshed is a bad thing.
  On the auction point that started this thread before I went insane I still feel that set prices for all items (within a range) is needed to keep things flowing, that will end auctions and price cutting.
  Oh and by the way this thread was in the sipirt of open and friendly debate and at no time did I accuse anyone of anything but offered opinons (yes based on speculation, that we will see in the near future how accurate it was or not). As a matter of fact I was clear in saying that I did not think there was any ill intent on anyones part or favoritism in play. I enjoy debating game systems and have for many years, I know this is a place that supports that kind of community input. But if I tweaked anyones funnybone on this one then I am sorry, so peace to all and I am sure the CNR changes will be good for the world, the system, and the story line. lets talk a bit about the auction point

[twidget658]

Dorganath - 12/24/2005  8:36 PM

Emeralds washed from mystery minerals found in greenstone or copper are hugely destabilizing to the economy of Layonara.  It has made "haves" out of "have nots" and done so quickly. Not everyone has found an emerald in such a manner, and not everyone who is a "have" has become so by finding one.  

Yeah, I mention finding one in copper, but for what it is worth, I still have all three. *smiles*

It has been tempting to trade or sell, but my friends have kept me from it. I am fortunate to have friends to help keep my head straight.

Definition time:
Haves (n) - Refers to people who have companions
Haves Nots (n) - Refers to people who do not have companions – Antonym: Haves

[Guardian 452]

Stopping level 4's from gaining enough coin to be set for life off a mineral they find while mining copper, greenstone or killing skeletons IS the problem.

An auction is just that an auction... it's a funny thing because it takes AT LEAST 2 people to make one work. So long as one is willing to pay what they bid and not welch on their bids... I see NOTHING wrong with it.

So what if they end up paying 4 times what something is worth. That's an auction!!!


No one seems to mention the auctions that couldnt even get a single bid!



G-452

[NEXUS7]

I dont think they should just for the top gem find think
thats so cool in game that a poor player could hit it rich in them there hills

[jrizz]

You know G-452 I dont disagree with you. Auctions are a sign of a free market. It just seems to me that what we are trying to set prices at one end and have a free market at the other. But then again this is a game so we dont have to try to create a real market. That is the point I was missing, I was applying RL markets to the Layo market DUH

[Pibemanden]

My opinion about the mystery mineral system is that it should be removed.
The only problem is that if it's going to be removed it is going to cause some balancing issues.

First of almost all characters as I stated in another tread must find companions or slow their levelling down a lot(or a little) if they want equipment equal to their level. Because you can't expect to find new companions each time you're online, I know this from experience as I usually sit in Hlint a couple of hours each night... But again it gives me time to study so it might be a good thing.

The second issue that could become a problem is not really a big thing for most people only the near epic characters and the ones who make it there. Because if they're going to get "their" emerald jewellery, acid enchantments/resistances and all other things you can make from rubies and diamonds they have to do it in a totally different manner. This would in a way favour the few(I don't know the numbers) who already have those items as the market for these thing would be very different if you had to fight a number of epic monsters before you could get to the resource that you before could buy from a person who where more that happy for your however large amount of gold.

As for the auction thing, I have no objections to that as it's a very good way of valuing the highest end items whose value depends a lot on the demand for them.

[errk]

I disagree.  I think the mystery mineral puts an interesting twist on the game.  

I really don’t see what the problem is.  Following ZV’s pricing guide to prevent people dumping ‘easily’ made items onto the market is necessary, but stopping the very few lucky ones that find an emerald to capitalize on their fortune is just more ‘legislation’ that would be hard to monitor..

I actually find it interesting to see what prices the auctions give.. It sets the standard for such items.  Not just emeralds..   Come to think of it, I think we could use more auctions.

I’ve never seen an emerald.. (played 6 months now) If I did find one, I’d trade it for 10 diamonds, because then I might be able to scribe one 7th level scroll.. (who put that evil scribing system in place anyway ; )

[Seteece]

i look at the mystery mineral as the miners bonus.
i've had at least a few hundred mystery minerals and have only recently found my first emerald, which promply shattered while it was being made into a ring *sighs*