Combatants Vs. Magicians - Unfair Balance?

[lonnarin]

Can't wait till the day I get that Prc.

Me too; the more skalds the better!  The best part about skalds is that you can choreograph their curse songs with one another...  have one handle the standard curse song, another do the slowing, another do the blind/deafening, another do the fear... etc, and plan a huge monster-mashing whammy of a blow right at the beginning.  Then they're all blind, deaf, cursed, slow, terrified, and dead at once.

If the skalds made a troupe and journeyed the lands, the monsters wouldn't even know what hit them.

[ycleption]

Oh, and by the way.  I'm didn't write this to complain about anything, just to discuss the thought.  I don't mind my role as a Fighter IG.  And I don't need a God to run around as killing everything.  I've done that else where and in Normal NWN and it gets boring fast being able to kill things all alone.

Just wanted to hear what others thought.

I wasn't meaning to sound accusatory. I just think that this is a game, it's supposed to be fun, and so people should play what they will enjoy, whether that's an engine of destruction, or a pure support character. Constantly trying to compare your own class to others' rarely makes you have fun, in my opinion.

The game isn't designed for every class to have equal abilities, so why worry about it, unless there are truly gross disparities that make one class unplayable?

[Interia_Discordius]

I can't wait until I can play a bard/skald, which will be in about a year and a half, unfortunately, unless Kin and Hawk's kid has some odd age growth spurt or Layonara time jumps

[Drizzlin]

Have you ever seen what a few mithril golems do to mage?

[jrizz]

Have you ever seen what a few mithril golems do to mage?

That is what summons are for

Now when you get one of those nasty beasts that dispel things then you are in trouble LOL.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Servant of Pandemonium...

Thats all I'm gonna say  *glares at Hawklen*

[Odranoela]

Well, I think the reason of this apparent "unbalance" is, in reality, to push players towards grouping up.
The way I see it, we as players are supposed to seek to meet new people, form parties and then use our skills or lack there of to complement the other's skills.

Then it all gets balanced.. Works real well if you have a classic DND party.

You see, Lino my character is not -at all- very useful in hunts and battles or even solo hunt, however I love my character, I have fun playing him... I have heard he is fun to have around and maybe that's why I get invited to hunts.

I get real happy when someone sends me a Tell and they need a rogue in the party for some scouting or traps & locks.. If it wasn't for the damned pixies I think maybe there would be even a bigger "rogue demand".

So you see, personally, it's a matter of finding my spot on the party, and doing what i'm supposed to do. I flank, run around like crazy, and as with all good lightfoot rogues, I loot like there's no tomorrow.
I may be useless in a party that thinks only in combat and XP, but I'd like to continue to believe that in this server, great server, I'll have many opportunities to do what my character is meant to do and have fun.
-lino

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Lino is also very good in some stews!

:p;)

Val and Shiff Love Lino!
We even have him over for dinner...  (or was it as dinner?)

[Interia_Discordius]

A rogue useless in a combat party? I'd like to see them continuously hit over 30-40 damage at level 10 or whatever those numbers are. I usually hit higher if you average it all out compared to a fighter, but I'm not taking account in levels 'cause I'm too lazy to do a LORE check on what I'm saying.

Flat out, sneak attacks are the best thing created for the so-called combat useless rogue.

[hawklen]

Servant of Pandemonium...

Thats all I'm gonna say  *glares at Hawklen*

What part of "STAY BACK" Didnt Shiff understand? ^_^

[Chongo]

At different levels, different classes are more or less effective. At high levels, mages are almost universally more effective in terms of soloing.

 
 
 The first sentence in this statement is 100% accurate.  The second sentence is misguided however, and Layonara just hasn't seen enough high epics (30+) to show it.
 
 Do a search on this sort of thing and you'll see discussions over and over and over and over and over and over and over again on melee's vs. casters.  Why aren't melee's more powerful, why isn't my class more powerful, why can that guy over there do this that and the other thing.
 
 So let's clear the air a bit... casters *are* more powerful.  *gasp*  At almost every level of their progression they will be able to add more value in anything they do.  But more often then not this issue rises hand in hand with soloing.  And I'd like to address some misconceptions on the issue:
 
 - First, remove bards from that 'power' list or Ozy will most likely hunt you down.
 - Look at the saving throws progression chart, then look at the maximized DC's on casters level 9 spells (not including implosion).  That is, DC 35 at level 17, DC 37 at lvl 21, DC 43ish at 40 I believe.  Notice anything there?  Notably, that you have a massively high DC at level 17 which doesn't change all *that* much over the next 23 levels.  Now look at the curve on saving throws.  For those powerful high level spells, the saving throw curve at level 17 up to around level 30 is pitifully outclassed by DC potential.  However, the curve shifts at around these high epic levels, and saving throws by the time you hit 40 yields casters that are left to buff monkeydom for the broad spectrum of what they do.  So yeah, until you hit very high magic, this is the case, and even then, there's still a window from 17-25 that puts casters in a position of overwhelming power.  And in this regard I'm talking about mages and sorcerors more then anything else.
 - Mass death, mass anything.  The spawns on Layo are usually large, and therefore conducive to mass death spells.  At those spawn sizes, a caster with a maximized casting stat will wreck havoc during his rest period and be able to generally kill 5-9 groups of around 8 creatures in rapid succession since he's hasted and has a full retinue of mass death, damage, or disabling spells.  9x300x8... that's a lot of experience progression *potential* in just 10 minutes.  This is after that level 17 mark on mages, 18 on sorcerors.  Not so much the other caster classes.  With a rest timer of 10 minutes the caster is fully self sufficient since they can continue at an unbelievable pace, by themselves, not needing anyone else to typically carry on the group until they need to restock their spells.  This is, in fact, an issue.
 - Immunities, magic defenses, and plus ups.  This is where the other caster classes come in.  By themselves, clerics, druids... they really can't do all that much by themselves - it's usually limited to a small niche they are dominant in because of a certain immunity they can give themselves.  The lack of 'balance' that you're talking about, is that caster classes are needed to give these immunities, magic defenses, and plus ups.  Layonara is a low magic world, and items don't give you these properties.  In the well balanced level 20 group you're looking at casters being able to apply all standard immunities to their melee's in group, in addition to what will amount to around +9 AB and +17-19 AC.  Healing will be constant.  You *can not* balance both ways.  It's either balance for the groups or just plain balance it wildly soft.  Layo balances for the groups, not the maximized groups mind you, but for the standard group synergy.  This is why melee's can't do much on their own.  There's not anything else to it.  They need the casters for the immunities, defensive magics, and plus ups to hit the bar for what the monsters were balanced for, because the items don't exist to do it for them.
 
 And I for one don't mind it.  Things aren't meant to really be balanced, likewise the last thing that I'd want to see done is nerf'ing a spell or class.
 
 The trick is empowering all classes, and the update you're going to see within the week goes miles in achieving the empowering of some of these red headed stepchildren we like to call melees.  I consider it a massive advancement in giving melee's their shining moments and their playgrounds.  And you're going to see a lot of roll reversal in what you've all gotten used to in groups.  You'll be hearing a lot more on that soon.
 
 But the core of this game system isn't going to change, the variability of casters will always allow what variability permits.  The class synergy will still be there for challenges, and you will always see an niche for this or that class to solo.  I'd say that everyone just needs to swallow that pill and just keep playing for fun, and taking the ego hits in stride.
 
 

[Blackguy]

WTT Epic level 30 Wizard with fullgear for same level Fighter or Melee person. /pm Blackguy

[Praylor Falcus]

Only problem I see with current system is the fact Mage war parties being able to solo areas a melee war party could not, Means greater experience and as item drops are based on creature DC's.  The variance and potential for faster advancement, and better items.
 
   This is called unbalance in the real world and to blow smoke to cover the fact is just wrong. To say mages being able to waltz around east , gathering uber items not available to like parties of Melees and this is fair ?
 
    But as has been stated above , we will have to give staff a chance to level the field a bit , Hopefully this change spoken of will be a step in the right direction.

[Interia_Discordius]

Oh, leveled playing field?

This is why I love being a rogue/fighter so much.

[hawklen]

Played right, the rogue is a valuable class. Sneak attacks can change the tide of a fight.

[kuchida]

Every class looks more powerful than the one you're currently playing.

[Dezza]

Clerics can't all be lumped in the overall even balanced crunch anything they come across class. Same was as not all fighters are as effective as others, not all wizards are as effective as others.

Really each character is different and in terms of cleris especially, the diety you follow really dictates what the character is going to be capable of doing. My level 15 cleric of Dorand is geared towards crafting so in battle she cannot solo without getting the snot beaten out of her. The same cleric of Vorax at that level could beat up anything they come across.

Its a matter of perspective and waht you mean by effective. If you mean a character that can run across Dreger and take on anything well thats only one type of effective.

I know of priests of Aeridin who in the face of the enemy will fall and die in seconds (unless undead of course) but in terms of tending and caring for the party and healing people just before they die they are invaluable and super effective!

So...really..there are all types of class, all types of races, all types of effective!

Thats why its so much fun!

[vgn]

Here's the deal in a nutshell. Combatants at early levels (1-6(8?)) fair much better than Magicians. The Magicians just don't have the spell breadth yet nor the power and are also physically weak. In the mid-ranges the Magicians do tend to do better both solo and in a party. Some of this I believe is just difficulty in balancing perfectly. Once you go past Epic, sure a Magician can solo a few more areas than a Combatant, but they aren't "good" areas for that Epic and most of the good areas have spawns that are overwhelming to a solo character, no matter what type. This is where combatants shine again. Not solo, but in a team. An epic Magician can completely pump up a combatant. This pumped up combatant lasts far longer and is far more lethal and useful than a few deadly damage spells.

[Anamnesis]

Since my name was one mentioned at the beginning, I feel compelled to mention that it was through enormous amount of time and team work that Elly has gotten as far as she has. She still can not brave most places alone and realies quite heavily on her summons to do her leg work. Please don't feel that because I can cast level 8 spells that I can kick butt, it is because of those I venture with, knowing what they are doing that I have any appearance of strength. Or atleast they have the appearance of knowing what they are doing.

I have also found through the trial and error of my hubbie, that rushing kills people more quickly than anything and taking your time, alerting few enemies to your position and taking them out slowly makes a big difference than rushing headlong.

If I have to fight a battle alone, I tend to let my summons take the brunt of the attack and buff him with cats grace, owls wisdom, endurance, bulls strength, stone skin and protection from elemental attacks... maybe overkill, but maybe not.

I still prefer IC not to fight if I can avoid it but I do like to have Elly prepared should she find herself in a fight regardless. I have lost a ss to Malar for my ignorance or forgetfullness that Malar can see through invisibility and that DM's are gods that see all and know all so its best to be prepared for anything because when you start to feel most comfortable they will appear out of nowhere with some random encounter, whether it be good or bad. I love the DM's here!!!

[hawklen]

I still prefer IC not to fight if I can avoid it but I do like to have Elly prepared should she find herself in a fight regardless. I have lost a ss to Malar for my ignorance or forgetfullness that Malar can see through invisibility and that DM's are gods that see all and know all so its best to be prepared for anything because when you start to feel most comfortable they will appear out of nowhere with some random encounter, whether it be good or bad. I love the DM's here!!!

I did yell for you to stop, and did say malars could see!

But yeah, this ought to be interesting.