Dont Worry Krell. Im still your Friend

[Xhenosfrost]

In a world that brings nothing but hate and ignorance. I'll still openly be your friend.

[darkstorme]

This will serve as the thread for comments pertaining to these threads:

• http://forums.layonara.com/layonara-server/173722-truth-lucius-kaiser-krell-himmler-ban.html
  
• http://forums.layonara.com/layonara-server/173762-irony.html
  

Provided that the discussion remains civil towards all involved, this thread will remain open.

Edit: Moved to appropriate forum.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

You know, I've been sitting about, thinking on this whole issue (as I had found myself becoming friends with Krell shortly before his ban, and thusly was told everything - well, everything he'd tell straight - as it unfolded, more or less) for a while. And there's a lot to think about - the good of the community, of various individuals within and without that community, of plain and simple moral ideals... But I've come to a few conclusions.

I disagree very strongly, for personal and moral reasons, with Leanthar's decision to ban him - or, rather, for his reasons for doing so. I'm sure there are those who agree with those reasons; I understand that, and don't hold any ill will for it. However, having been in a similar life situation, I feel that an instant, permanent ban is absolutely unwarranted. This isn't blatant sexual harassment that's in question, here, but some kid reaching out for whatever help he could find. I've been there.

I disagree (if not quite as strongly) with Krell's decision to bring this out in the way that he did. While the one "truth about the ban" thread might not've been too terrible, the other(s?) was over the line of what's reasonable. I'd been very happy that he was taking the ban so well, and was being so goodnatured about it... Leaving well-wishes for folks here and the like. It's disappointing, to me, that it's fallen out this way.

All in all, I suppose you could say I'm still sitting on the fence, thinking about all of this. I don't think either party really got it right. I'm not sure how this whole situation bodes for the community. I'm not sure about a lot.

Ah, well. *Tips his hat.*

[Eight-Bit]

Wow is all I have to say about this.

[Nehetsrev]

As someone who was in a way directly impacted by this I'd like to voice a few thoughts of my own.  First let me explain how I was impacted.  You see my wife, who is a very caring, loving individual, was the person whom Krell told he was having thoughts of suicide.  Because she does care so much for nearly everyone she meets/deals with, this was an upsetting thing to her.  She worried about him, and her mood here at home was clearly one of deep concern which I had to help her deal with throughout the course of this.  So yes, our family life here was someone disrupted by this.  I'd be concerned myself if it wasn't.

Now, when my wife went to the Team here at Layonara, she did so to ask them to trace Krell's location so that local authorities where he lives could be contacted and advised of his potential crime.  Her only intent was to get him help.

Let's go back a tad.  Yes, that's right, in the first sentance of the previous paragraph I did say suicide is a crime.  Not just from a legal standpoint, but from a social one as well.  It might seem to the person who contemplates suicide that the only person affected  is themselves.  That delusion is false, as you can see my whole family was affected, the Team here at Layonara was affected, and so on.  Now, to clarify a bit more, and I'll say right now I'm no professional phsycologist, but studies show that suicide is a cry for attention.  Judging from nature of many of the posts he's made on these forums since he started here, and the continuing posts since his banning, attention is something Krell seems pretty intent on getting.  Telling someone you barely know that you're thinking of committing suicide though, is not an appropriate way to get it, even if it is somewhat effective.

Now, this is certainly not the first individual that my wife and I have encountered in gaming communities who's talked of suicide.  It actually comes up pretty often, sadly enough.  Some of those we've dealt with before really were about to attempt suicide, but most, as I suspect is the case with Krell, were simply talking about it for the extra attention.  In either type of situation, the solution remains the same, contact those in the person's local area and notify them of the problem so that they can receive the professional help they need.

I personally stand behind Leanthar's decision that removing such a disruptive person from the community (at least until they've gotten professional help, have matured enough, and can come back in a non-disruptive way) is a positive step to take.  I hope as a result that now my family and I can continue to return to Layonara without seeing it as a place where we have to deal with the worries that come from other people's deep-seated emotional problems.  We do, after all, remain here at Layonara to have fun gaming with other people who are here for the same reason.  Having fun in a family-friendly environment is one of the foundational principals of Layonara, acting as an emotional support group is not.

Maybe this post makes me sound calloused, and from years of dealing with these sorts of things in other online gaming communities I guess I am.  I used to be like my wife, and offer a shoulder to cry on to just about anyone.  Then I realized with most of those I was trying to be friend to their problems were making me feel awful all the time myself, and nothing I said ever seemed to help them resolve their problems because they never truly listened to any advice given, but rather continued to wallow in their own self-misery as though they enjoyed being that way.

To those that have such problems that they feel life may not be worth living I say, "While a friend will help you pick up your burden and get you moving down the road of life again, they aren't meant to shoulder your burden for you the whole way.  If that's not enough to get your through, then you need more help than a friend should have to provide.  Try going to God and getting His help, He's there for everyone who believes.  Countless caring and compassionate pastors are everywhere and they can help you get in touch with God on a personal spiritual level.  If you don't believe in God though, there are still numerous people who have devoted their lives to helping others through thier initial problems and teaching people how to deal with their problems on their own.  There are doctors, nurses, psychologists, councellors, and even suicide prevention hotlines you can call upon for professional and real help in your time of personal crisis.  As a friend, I'll gladly give you the occasional encouraging word or pep-talk as needed, but I won't give you my life."

[ycleption]

I'm just trying to get some words out on paper here, so apologies if anything comes out wrong:

I've also been someone who used to provide a crying shoulder to anyone and everyone who needed... I certainly have had many friends (not to mention two of my siblings), both inside and outside of gaming communities who have had issues with suicidal impulses, depression, self-injury, anorexia, etc.
I definitely believe that there is a time when removing that shoulder and telling someone they need to get themselves help is needed, and can be best for both parties involved. Personally, in the past number of years I've gotten much better about being firm with people and not letting them take over my life. In the same way, I think layo, like any community, can't let people who have issues take over the community.

So on one hand, I fully understand the decision to ban Krell. I don't disagree with anything that Nehetserev said above. I said some of this on IRC, I wasn't overly fond of the player, he behaved in some rather juvenile and often (to my conception of it at least) did not act in the spirit of the server (although he was certainly improving), and that he got banned doesn't surprise me. Especially given everything Nehetserev said, I can't say I'm sad to see Krell go.

On the other hand. I believe that anytime a player is banned, this community is diminished. Having had a handful of OOC discussions with Krell, I wish I had said a few things to him that may have made him think twice before saying things that so impacted community members here. In addition to my own and any other members who chatted OOC with Krell trying to have done something differently, I wonder about the team here... Although I don't have a magic window into the process that led Krell to be banned, and I can only speculate about what happened, but I can't help feeling like some other sanction, or warning might have been appropriate. I appreciate the desire to protect the interests of the banned player by not disclosing much, especially given the circumstances, but I think the player base could benefit from a bit more transparency, or even just asking the players what they wish disclosed to the community. Maybe allowing a few last words would help the coming back and spamming the forums to make a case (or maybe it would just make players feel like they're entitled to contest the banning, I don't know).

So, while I fully support Nehetserev's comments and concerns, and I fully support the decision of the team here, I also have a somewhat sour taste in my mouth from the whole thing.

[Leanthar]

http://forums.layonara.com/layonara-server/173722-truth-lucius-kaiser-krell-himmler-ban.html#post897292

[kenty191]

Before I begin here, please bare in mind that I've only been made aware of this situation through the locked threads posted on the forums. Also, I have had no personal connection with Krell, either IC or OOC and as such can only rely on what I have read here. As is the case with such things I'm sure there is far more unsaid than is said.

Nevertheless, I feel compelled to challenge Nehetsrev's comments regarding suicide; if this topic was to be avoided by the community with this ban it appears to have failed given the discussion here.

My primary issue with Nehetsrev's comments lies here:

to clarify a bit more, and I'll say right now I'm no professional phsycologist, but studies show that suicide is a cry for attention. Judging from nature of many of the posts he's made on these forums since he started here, and the continuing posts since his banning, attention is something Krell seems pretty intent on getting. Telling someone you barely know that you're thinking of committing suicide though, is not an appropriate way to get it, even if it is somewhat effective.

The above begins with a disclaimer 'I'm no professional phsycologist (sic)' but is followed by a claim that suicide is a 'cry for attention', without any justification in my opinion. 'Studies show' is a nice turn of phrase, but studies can show an awful lot of things. Suicide is a complex issue, one that I do not claim to understand, unlike Nehetsrev. Nevertheless there seems to be a shared societal understanding here of the nature of a suicide victim, which may or may not have empirical support.

Aside from this, I take issue with the broader series of events here.

A ban from a community in which you play and experience social interactions with others cannot be seen in any other light other than a negative one, I would argue. I cannot comprehend the reasoning behind a 'community' adding negativity to an individual's life that already appears to be at a low point.

Therefore I am left with one other thought. The 'community' acted through self preservation by removing the problem, not entirely within a community spirit I would say.

I can understand the negativity this individual could bring to the community. However, I would also argue that just such a community may provide a neutral outlet for whatever emotions a person may be having, although they should be expressed privately as seems to have been the case here by reading the emails sent.

We are not here to council, but what harm is there in talking among friends, no matter how geographically remote?

Note: I have no personal issues with any people mentioned above, it is their arguments I have problems with.

Just my two pennies

Dan

[Honora]

Maybe this post makes me sound calloused, and from years of dealing with these sorts of things in other online gaming communities I guess I am.  I used to be like my wife, and offer a shoulder to cry on to just about anyone.  Then I realized with most of those I was trying to be friend to their problems were making me feel awful all the time myself, and nothing I said ever seemed to help them resolve their problems because they never truly listened to any advice given, but rather continued to wallow in their own self-misery as though they enjoyed being that way.

Hallelujah.


 The one thing that has always made the Layo community stand out is the maturity of the majority of the players.  This is not ageism - I have met players that I got along with like a crony and was stunned (and pleased) to discover they were 14, 17.  And while most players will ask others for help - there are a few Layo folk who have been on the receiving end of one of my extended whines recently - most of us know when to step back.  And when to give back.

And then, there are players who have problems that transcend the cathartic relief that Layo gives us from our day-to-day lives, players who become either too wrapped up in the game or who need far more help than a disembodied text over an avatar's head can provide.  We've all read the news from time to time presumably - suicide is not a joke, and I applaud Hanna for taking steps that a lot of people would not have taken in order to possibly save a young life.

However, it appears (and I will certainly rescind this if more information is made public) that the call for help was not as sincere as it could have been, and as Nhet said, it becomes very not funny at that point.  I believe it's griefing, absolutely.  And I think the team did the right thing under the circumstances.


Edit: Hallelujah was not meant to be a link.

[miltonyorkcastle]

@Kenty

I am a firm believer that this community should be a place where folks having a rough turn in life can settle into and find some enjoyment and comfort.

As L has explained, however, legal issues abound and we can't afford to get entangled. This community is not equipped to deal with RL social issues. We play pretend in the game, but we can abide by our own rules there. RL social problems can't be solved by a bindstone (obviously).

Had Krell chosen to voice his problems outside the Layo environment, L wouldn't have needed to ban him. Since Krell did use one of the community outlets (which include IG tells, Layo's IRC server, and the forums), he forced L's hand.

My point is, please, by all means, make friends through the game. Make close friends that can help you through tough times. Just don't use the Layo gaming arena(s) as the space to explore your problems. Hundreds of other neutral avenues exist through which you can communicate and deal with social issues.

Anytime you take your problems in-game, either directly or indirectly, Leanthar will be forced to handle the situation in the appropriate manner to protect the community from legal and otherwise destructive repercussions. Banning is one of those tools he must use in situations like this.

It's unfortunate, and like all the bannings I have been around to witness, leaves a sour taste in my mouth, too. I had some good times with Krell, and tried to help him along (I have a weakness for giving second, third, and, okay, multiple chances to get things right). I hope he understands that we're not out to get him, but we have to do what's right for the community.

[Nehetsrev]

The reason I said that the way I did goes back to when I was n highschool and a classmate took their own life.  The highschool authorities brought in several professional psychologists to address the student body as a whole, and those professionals cited several studies supporting what I stated above, that most often attempted suicide is a cry for attention more than a real desire to stop living.  Granted, highschool was many years ago for me, and perhaps new studies on the problem don't come to those same conclusions, but since I don't keep up with the latest psychological studies, I simply stated from what knowledge I had heard in times past.

As to what harm comes from this sort of thing, I refer again to how the life of my family was disrupted with the grief and concern for this person we really truly don't know well enough that they should come to us with this sort of problem, which again is best handled by professionals anyhow.  We spend time here to enjoy our free time, not to be given more to worry about.  It's one thing to encourage a friend going through a bad day or two here and there, and quite a bit of a different situation altogether to end up being used by them as their personal councillor.

While I truly do hope the best for Krell, and that he does seek and find the help he needs to live happilly here after, the point remains as Leanthar stated, an online gaming community is not the place to seek it.

[Heinz Rondorf]

You know, I've been sitting about, thinking on this whole issue (as I had found myself becoming friends with Krell shortly before his ban, and thusly was told everything - well, everything he'd tell straight - as it unfolded, more or less) for a while. And there's a lot to think about - the good of the community, of various individuals within and without that community, of plain and simple moral ideals... But I've come to a few conclusions.

I disagree very strongly, for personal and moral reasons, with Leanthar's decision to ban him - or, rather, for his reasons for doing so. I'm sure there are those who agree with those reasons; I understand that, and don't hold any ill will for it. However, having been in a similar life situation, I feel that an instant, permanent ban is absolutely unwarranted. This isn't blatant sexual harassment that's in question, here, but some kid reaching out for whatever help he could find. I've been there.

I disagree (if not quite as strongly) with Krell's decision to bring this out in the way that he did. While the one "truth about the ban" thread might not've been too terrible, the other(s?) was over the line of what's reasonable. I'd been very happy that he was taking the ban so well, and was being so goodnatured about it... Leaving well-wishes for folks here and the like. It's disappointing, to me, that it's fallen out this way.

All in all, I suppose you could say I'm still sitting on the fence, thinking about all of this. I don't think either party really got it right. I'm not sure how this whole situation bodes for the community. I'm not sure about a lot.

Ah, well. *Tips his hat.*

I agree with this guy. I have not been on very much since I started me new job, but I did know Krell alot. Possibly more than any of you all here, actually I do know him more than all of you. He was one of just a few people that would actually help the lower lvls.

I know he is not the suicidal type aswell. It is called a joke. At least from my expierience with him it is. See, he believes that suicide is for the weak, as do I. Both me and him do not like todays society because alot of people commit suicide, which means that this society is weak. My father always said I was born in the wrong time period. Thats enough about my thoughts.

Just got one question though, Can Leanther still be liable because he kicked him out, driving him further?  Since this is America and anyone can be sued or put on trial for just about anything.

[kenty191]

I can see the legal problems which may have arisen from this situation (although I was not aware at the time of my last post). Leanthar's detailing of the legal implications gave me a fresh perspective on this.

I still wish Krell all the best and would have sought to help him/her in his/her time here, had we been in contact in the way others were.

The bitter taste others have spoken of is nevertheless there for me also.
 
Dan

[Hellblazer]

I can say I understand How Nehetsrev feels. His wife is a very close friend to me and I know how she can care deeply for people that she barely knows.

I few years back ( we are talking in the 10 years here), I was myself expose to many attempts of reaching out from teens and early adulthood, For many different kind of problems, while I was a worker (counselor) at a drop in center in Chateauguay (a small town near where I live). I have witness first hand how this can affect not only the persons, the family and friends of those persons, but also me myself and my family when things over there started to be to much of what I could handled myself.

When you think that even counselors and therapist are strongly advised to be followed themselves to make sure that what they deal with on a regular basis does not bring them into the same thought pattern of those they try to help, you can imagine how those who have not receive proper training or support can feel.

L is right here, as much as I would like for him to give greater aid to those in that situation who might need it, he is bound by law and could be held accountable. The mandate of his server and forum is not one of information, support or counseling. We are all here to be able to escape our daily lives and be able to decompress from our own problems in a friendly environment and with friends. However, what people wishes to do , outside of Leanthar utilities, is of their own choice, but I personally think that those sorts of things, should not be told to people who are not good friends to you or in anyway able to pose concrete steps to help you. Thus I firmly stand behind L that he needs professional help, one that this community, unless we have a psychanalist on hand, can not offer.  I commend Nancy for her effort and she did the right thing too.

[Heinz Rondorf]

Hallelujah.


 The one thing that has always made the Layo community stand out is the maturity of the majority of the players.  This is not ageism - I have met players that I got along with like a crony and was stunned (and pleased) to discover they were 14, 17.  And while most players will ask others for help - there are a few Layo folk who have been on the receiving end of one of my extended whines recently - most of us know when to step back.  And when to give back.

And then, there are players who have problems that transcend the cathartic relief that Layo gives us from our day-to-day lives, players who become either too wrapped up in the game or who need far more help than a disembodied text over an avatar's head can provide.  We've all read the news from time to time presumably - suicide is not a joke, and I applaud Hanna for taking steps that a lot of people would not have taken in order to possibly save a young life.

However, it appears (and I will certainly rescind this if more information is made public) that the call for help was not as sincere as it could have been, and as Nhet said, it becomes very not funny at that point.  I believe it's griefing, absolutely.  And I think the team did the right thing under the circumstances.

And Honora, what the heck is up with the Hallelujah? I do not appreciate the words you types towards my good friend. You speak of maturity, why do you bring up this? It does not make since, if you want to go as far as say Krell was immature, then I must say you were very immature that you posted that. Posting Hallelujah is something my 6 year old cousin would say.
If not then disregard the above statements.

[aragwen]

I know he is not the suicidal type aswell. It is called a joke. At least from my expierience with him it is.
 

 
 Heinz
 
 If this was indeed a joke, it is the worst kind. Many people was concerned when they heard this and hoped he was allright. And as allready stated this joke created disruptions in other's lifes and families. This is not the kind of thing one jokes about.
 
 And even if this was a joke one cannot just discount it as such, cause if you dont act on the information you might feel a lot worse when you find out that is was not a joke.
 
 I this was not a joke, I hope Krell is allright and getting the necesary help.
 
 If it was indeed a joke then I am really saddened by the immaturity. And yes I call it immaturity, cause that is exactly what joking about something like this is.
 
 Krell I wish the best of luck and just want to say, "Keep your chin up, there is always help if you want it".

[Anamnesis]

My head has been spinning about this all day as I attempted to figure out what to say. I have been unfortunate enough to lose two friends to suicide which is more than enough to make anyone stop and think hard and take action when something like this is brought to their attention.

I had NO way to know if he was serious or lying but took the actions I felt best given the circumstances. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING YOU JOKE about, so if I am upset about this and hurt. I have a right to be.

I firmly stand behind L's position and that of all of the Layo team to protect this community and I hope that this serves as a wake up call to all of us that this is something you don't joke about. EVER!

I did not want to lose another friend, and I had very much started to consider Krell one, as we were starting to get to know each other in game.

I will not give out my email to discuss this, nor my msn for me this needs to be closed because this is really hitting to close to home for my comfort level and I truly wish that the discussion would end.

The sides have been explained the actions taken, his contact information has been left for all those wishing to keep in contact.

I wanted to be part of a solution to help, not part of lie, and certainly not part of an attack against the Layo Team or L himself.

[Acacea]

I know he is not the suicidal type aswell. It is called a joke. At least from my expierience with him it is. See, he believes that suicide is for the weak, as do I. Both me and him do not like todays society because alot of people commit suicide, which means that this society is weak. My father always said I was born in the wrong time period. Thats enough about my thoughts.

Regardless of my opinion of this one way or the other, if that is what was on his mind when he approached her then he deserved to be banned, period. Not just for help, not for legal matters, but for being a [strike]oops[/strike] uh, inflammatory mean person. That doesn't belong here. None of our personal opinions on suicide or other social issues come into play here, they are irrelevant. Pretending to someone that will be deeply affected by the pretense, however, is very relevant and deserving of action. Think of it as threatening that you have a bomb at an airport. Why would you? It doesn't matter what you think of bombs at airports or airport security - that was uncalled for.

I suggest that you do not try to 'defend' him in such a manner, as at least everyone else was not really attacking him for being an idiot or a jerk, just stating whether they agreed or disagreed with the method of handling of a delicate topic and offering their support, without questioning the honesty and validity of how it was handled. Coming on to claim that your friend was "j/k!!" is the opposite of helpful to his reputation. At this point it is better to be taken seriously with the community's wish for his help than to split them in pieces with the community's ire. If that's how it was, then let it go and tell him to let it go, because he won't be coming back.

If he genuinely had a problem then as you have seen he has the well wishes of the playerbase and DM team. Should he in time really find resolution to his problems, if existing, and speak with Leanthar about returning in moderation, then maybe it would even be considered. He was, as stated, not banned for excessive griefing or other rule breaking scenarios. I feel fairly confident in saying that regardless of what anyone thinks of him personally, that someone would likely not remained banned forever in a gameworld because of social issues they had in life at one point. Maybe that's not the case, I don't know. I'm just saying that at this point in the game, he was much better off before it was openly called into question. Frankly, his friends claiming 'just a joke' and himself starting multiple accounts as if in some holy forum war, etc, do the opposite of gaining support.

Regarding your objection to Honora's post, I think we can do better than speak out against the injustice of the word choices people use. Your six year old cousin, one of our writers, a thousand other people that use the word for things they agree with. Oh well, seriously - would it have been less offensive if she said "Thank you for summing up in this quoted paragraph exactly what is in my thoughts; I fervently agree." Probably not, it would just be something else that was insulting, heh. I don't see anywhere she stated "Krell is immature," either. It seemed more like she praised the maturity of the community, and went on to say that some cases were beyond the help internet buddies can provide. Whether or not this is agreed with, I don't see where the insults and immaturity come into play.

[lonnarin]

I love him to death, but one crosses a line when you start talking suicide for attention to those trying to enjoy a game and escape from real life.  And yes, most of the time it is for attention using yourself other people's heartstrings as a hostage.  Speaking as a Graduate of a Psychology Major with over 6 years of various counseling experience, (Ronald McDonald House, OnCampus Peer Counseling, Rape Crisis Centers, Hospice & elderly volunteer work) I can affirm *as a mental health professional* that this is the case.  If somebody's being disruptive in a community with problems such as these, and then turning the whole fiasco public ranting, then access to an online gaming service is the last thing they need.  Above all else, even counseling, such people must be made aware that there are reciprocal consequences to such anti-social behavior.  Banning is one of them.  Will that, as Heinz indicated, send him over the edge?  *As a mental health professional* I will state again... the last thing somebody needs when they have these kinds of problems is an RPG server's escapist fantasy.  The last people you need to be going to advice for are faceless strangers, no matter how well you may think you know them.  Yes there are other people on the other end of the console, but this is a fantasy world.  Those who cannot seperate the darkest aspects of their own reality from fantasy will have the toughest time of all.

Now I speak as an expert of suicide.  I have had a close friend in College, a girlfriend and a family member all commit suicide in my lifetime, and about another handful of people who have attempted, so those who claim the only victim is the one themselves really don't see it from the same angle I do.  When somebody close to you kills themselves, it cuts to the very core of your being, making you feel responsible, making you wonder day by day what you could have done differently, said differently to prevent this.  Can you even comprehend how it feels to go to bed every night and keep seeing your family and loved ones dying?  Have you ever called 911 because you found the person you love choked to death on their own vomit or having slit their wrists because they had a manic episode?  I have.  These images cut through a person, every loved one you leave behind, and every night after that night they will always remember, and keep blaming themselves.  

Well there comes a point when one must stop accomidating such actions, when one's own mental health and attention seeking behavior truly infringes on the lives of other people.  There is only person who should be accountable for their own actions, by moral perogative.  By law however, every person who stands by and lets somebody harm themselves or others are compliant, so Leanthar is in every right to suspend a server account in order to avoid getting sued or jailtime.  Is this fair to him that just because a player's having a bad day that they need to hold hostage the freedom and financial future of a man literally thousands of miles away who you never met face to face?  Should he be sued by your parents or arrested by mobs of government social workers due to actions on another's part?  Certainly not, nor is it fair to disrupt this community with your spamming rants.  He kept this all quiet for him so that Lucius would not be publicly humiliated, and still he came forward to scream out every last bit of what happened.  

This is all just attentionseeking, disruptive behavior.  I've dealt with suicidal people for most of my life and I've run out of patience or sympathy for such tactics.  Holding other people hostage with their own heartstrings with a razor to your wrist is a low tactic to say the least.  It should not in any case be rewarded with the attention that is sought, tolerant indifference to the tactic or even the remotest sympathy.  That is *rewarding* such self destructive behavior, behavior which victimizaes all those around them.  And the more you reinforce such behavior with reward, the more it will reoccur.

So I will state it again, just so that we are crystal clear on the matter... the LAST THING somebody needs is addiction to a fantasy world when they have so many real life problems.  On top of that, ranting about such problems and lashing out at the people trying to help you or even those just get away from your behavior isn't going to help either.  This is Leanthar's community which he built with his own two coding hands (and the frantic administrations of many others) which he pays for upwards of 400 bucks a month.  If he doesn't want the bandwidth he paid for used to promote and cast a spotlight on the attention-seeking behavior of a disturbed individual, then by all means it is his right *and moral and legal obligation* to do so.  He has a family to support, a server to run and a life to multitaks, nd the last thing he needs is mother Himmler suing him or some FBI man knocking on his door.  

So please, take the free advice Krell, and move on.  Get help and stop holding us hostage to your bouts of drama, if not for any of us, then for at least your own sake and that of your family who loves you.  If you need medication, take it; if your life sucks, change it... it's that simple.  But none of us need to change for you and none of us can "fix" you.  It will only get better when you choose to change yourself and hold yourself responsible for your own actions.  No words of support or sympathy will ever match the effect of taking control of your own life.

And if this whole dramatic fiasco was just due to a sick joke, I don't hear anybody laughing.

[Dorganath]

I will not give out my email to discuss this, nor my msn for me this needs to be closed because this is really hitting to close to home for my comfort level and I truly wish that the discussion would end.

I'm inclined to grant this wish.  Thread closed.