DTs

[jan]

More aften than not, a SS loss disrupts the whole game play and ruins RP. Also, it prevent some RP and a lot of adventuring from happen. I don't care what anyone says about how good it is for them, I can never agree with it nor will I ever be convinced that it is a good system.

It prevents adventuring because the player knows how-much are left .
To me personally it seems at-least a bit odd that players ( who have during their first 8-9 SS took lots of chances ) suddenly change because they know it could be their last death .

Lets face it , no one lives forever and no one should .
If you take that as a given , then its normal your char will perm one day , its the sudden change that occurs when a PLAYER gets scared of losing his/her character that ( in my eyes ) ruins the rp that said character was known for because fear is preventing that same character to stay as it always was .

[Lord of the Forest]

Well of course everyone has its own viewpoint about if the DT-System is bad or not, misplaced or just in the right shape) though I think I can call myself lucky that none of my chars permed yet, even though Dor was very close and Harlas accidentially permed her once on his quest by a misclick
Alas my personal view is that it kinda fits into Layonara. Of course sometimes the rolls don't favour one, the same happened to mumbles happened to me as well 2 years back or so but personally I think the system itself benefitted my RP in certain situation.

I can remember the time when the SoulMother was on her vacation. Many were like "Oh look I cannot perm or earn a DT so lets do the impossible just cause we can". I'd say if there's not a system like we use atm, then there would be something missing at all. Of course it is kind of frustration from time to time. Happened to me as well from time to time. Yet I see and understand those players who already permed after they spent a lot of time with their char or are close to perming.

Still you can die at least 10 times before you perm. There are other worlds with other systems which are pretty hardcore. If you die and don't get raised, well then you are dead.

-Inny

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This is of course my very own point of view and don't want to start a huge discussion about it at all. As for clarification I still use the term DT for Soul-Strands as well, don't really like the short 'SS'.

[Chongo]

Turn the system off, put back in severe XP loss, remove the xp loss floor so you can drop levels, and then....
 
 Flip the hardcore switch.
 
 Who else wants to see monsters do 300 damage? Pretty sure I have a smiter in there with a scythe that could probably get you goodies for 1000+.
 
 Just think, we'd have a whole new breed of discontent!  DD's would go on strike!  Palemasters of Toran would rise from the woodwork!
 
 O.o

[Lynn1020]

I love DTs.................

Doesn't everyone?!?  I think everyone should get equal amount of them to be able to share in the fun. :p



Just kidding... I agree that there should be some type of consequents for dying. I think the fear of losing your pc does add to their value.   It is the unfairness of it I don't like.  Some have died 100 or 200 times and still have plenty of SS left.  Then there are some that have permed with 50 or 60 deaths.  

Then you have the whole lag, crashing, bugs, disconnections, jumping at transition etc.  It is so hard to prove those things and get a SS reimbursed without a GM or WL.  

A lot of the time someone looses a SS they just get frustrated and log out. I have been guilty of that as well. Because often the higher pc's do not have that many left so there goes the mood of rp and most of the time the group disburses and there went any rp that was going on or adventuring.

Also the loss of SS's often forces you to rp your character differently than you normally would because of the fear of losing more.

[Chazzler]

Heh, if I recall this correctly, I got (as poor old Godim) 5 DT's/SS' on Godim's last 5 consecutive deaths *grins*

I still got the screenshot of Godim's last passing

The servers were kinda saying that a human being shouldn't be 114 years old or so and adventure around, heheh

[Lynn1020]

Heh, if I recall this correctly, I got (as poor old Godim) 5 DT's/SS' on Godim's last 5 consecutive deaths *grins*

OUCH!!!!

[Muhkuman]

Just as I was begining to think Muhk wouldn't lose any DT's(After dieing more times than I can count) I brought Muhk with Rugo and Balthazar down in the Rift to get Diamonds...and sure enough I lost my first that night >:/

[Eight-Bit]

Turn the system off, put back in severe XP loss, remove the xp loss floor so you can drop levels, and then....
 
 Flip the hardcore switch.
 
 Who else wants to see monsters do 300 damage? Pretty sure I have a smiter in there with a scythe that could probably get you goodies for 1000+.
 
 Just think, we'd have a whole new breed of discontent!  DD's would go on strike!  Palemasters of Toran would rise from the woodwork!
 
 O.o

I never lost a level when there was XP loss after every death. I don't think anyone did. I've lost millions of Xp from deaths before the v2 change over. I prefer the old system anyway. There was a greater risk involved, if you ask me, because back in the day we needed 32 million to get level 20, and any death past level 15 was a 500,000 xp loss guaranteed. Granted the only way to get any experience at level 15 was to trounce Fisterion, but that's another subject. You played a  lot smarter. The current system is a minor inconvenience, and death tokens are just the one tooth the old dog has.
 
It puts me off that whenever people disagree with a Layonara system we get the "it could be worse!" speech.

[jrizz]

Some time ago I suggested a change to the system that would create a hope based system instead of a hopelessness based system. But was told that no more major changes would be made anymore (that was two updates ago I think). Here was my suggestions (mind you they both keep the SS system):


1. Soul strength grows with the PC.
At 4th level you get 4 SS then you earn 1 every 2 levels. That will be a total of 12 by 20th level. Keep SMD at 21st level and have the earning go to one every three levels after 21. This method keeps the SS loss system as is and still keeps your PC afraid of death. But there will no longer be the hopelessness of "only one SS left". There will always be the hope that you can make it to the next time you can earn one. Also this method shows that the PC grows in soul strength as she gains in experience instead of getting weaker in soul. There are other reasons why this is a good way to go but I dont need to spell them all out.

2. Death means loss of play time.
In this method when you die and respawn you go right to the eye of the storm and you cannot enter the world again for 24 hours (could make it 30 so that it would really mean missing a lot) RT. With that there is no chance of SS loss. If you chose to wait for a RD or R spell then you risk the loss of a SS (resurrect would have the current % chance and RD would have some modifier so that the risk was higher). This way you would have to let your party know before setting out if you wish to be "helped" by a cleric if you die.

[osxmallard]

I liked the ideas brought up previously.  Basically, when you get to the magic number, you just stop playing a character altogether, removing the RP from the world as if the character permed anyway.

It does disrupt journeys and just removes any fun from adventures.  The system is said to keep people from taking unacceptable risks, which is quite contrary to anything magic in an online D&D setting... adventurers are supposed to take risks and strive for greatness.  There are plenty of RP characters that are fine with sitting around and not going out... that adds it's own mix of flavor to the world as well.

I do not agree with the 'people will just go crazy if we get rid of SS's' theory, and I think the community is respectful enough of the world to not abuse the loss of the SS system.  We always defer back to the 'look at how everyone went crazy before the blood finale'... I think that is because it was a new freedom on a server that was not balanced for the current average levels that we see now.  The average level on a server routinely falls between 15 and 26.  There are appropriate areas for each level range and people should strive to see the new areas and adventures, fully challenging their characters skill sets while maintaining fun in the world.

There is nothing less fun than rolling the dice against the SM on a death, whether it be the fault of the player or the fault of a bad computer connection, lag, or anything causing that d100 to roll.

As jrizz stated, there are plenty of other 'penalty' systems to still make the sting of death 'hurt' and be felt by the character without removing it from the world permanently.  XP loss, level loss, loss of time, requiring cleric raises... etc.

[Weeblie]

Long term, there is nothing less fun to see the lack of respect of deaths. Even in the present shape and form, a single death (except the last one) is regarded as "Oh... it happened again... get up, no time to sleep!".

Death should be so horrible on both an IC and OOC scale that it will actually be feared to death. SS system might not be the best, as fear is generally only struck when approaching the last few SSs... a super heavy XP hit sounds more like the system of choice. Funnily... though... those actually being present during that time (not me) tend to think the opposite.

[lonnarin]

It does disrupt journeys and just removes any fun from adventures.  The system is said to keep people from taking unacceptable risks, which is quite contrary to anything magic in an online D&D setting...

In my opinion, fear of permadeath reinforces excessive luring and making people look for an "I Win" button.  Why charge a whole group if you risk perming and having to throw away a character you've been working on for years and years?  If there was no permadeath, barbarians might actually think about charging ahead and trying to go down in a blaze of glory more apt to their alignment.

The thing I hate most about permadeath is that these tokens or soul strands being lost more often than not from a computer or network glitch, and there is no fair way to reimburse that.  You have the whole "there must be a GM present for reimbursement" policy, and inevitably it turns out that people who dont group with GMs rarely get reimbursement even if they have screenshots and all their friends as witnesses, and meanwhile if somebody happens to be good friends with a GM and died while in party with them, the reimbursement gets greenlighted.  I'd rather just have no reimbursements at all than to set the stage for some who do and some who don't.  Now this isn't server corruption or politics at work, just simply how the rule was written.  Requiring a GM to witness every reimbursement just immediately sets the stage for those who group with GMs getting more successful reimbursement requests than those who don't.  One group has a prequalified witness, another does not.

Honestly, having played over 4 years now and having only at maximum 3 deathtokens on my highest character, I really don't see much need for all these constant SS reimbursement requests. While it does suck to lose a SS to a crash, that's life.  I know 2 of my SS losses were due to server crashes or mega lag, and only the third was from fighting a nasty evil monster that could be considered a blaze of glory.  It sucks, but I move on.  Meanwhile I check the disputes forum from time to time and see some people getting SS reimbursements about every other month, to the point where they could have permed for two people by now.  This is why I hate the SS permadeath system...  MOST of the people who have permed did so because they A) had computer crashes for more than 2/3 of those tokens and B) could not get those soul strands back because they don't consistantly group with somebody who can be allowed to vouch for them.  

For these reasons above, I would rather permadeath be off the table.  On the other hand, I do think we should lose ALL of our gold when killed by beasties, and perhaps a random EQUIPPED item. (one with significant worth to the owner)  It's not like we're running around slaughtering ogres and only taking half their coinpurse each, heheh.  And feel free to dock XP per death, even de-level people.  It's not such a big deal, even if you do die to a crash... at least you still have your old character you've been working on for years and years.  But to have all that effort just blink away because your ISP glitches or your motherboard overheated OOC just immediately takes away the very concept of an honorable death offered by the permadeath system.  It'd be the same as if a PnP DM spilled coffee on your character sheet and said "haha! he's dead, roll up a lvl 1, now!"

When we perm, the very first thing that goes through our minds is "well, I technically should have 6 more chances, since those were all crashes".  And again, there is no fair way to reimburse this without the technicality of who you know and if they were at the right place at the right time.  I'd much rather have SS Loss only happen when there was a GM present to vouch for the death being legit, than to need one around to witness for reimbursement.  That would be far more fair, I think.  I'd rather catch a handful of legitamite deaths which had meaning than to pick and choose through waves and waves of deaths that occured from OOC computer stability.  Permadeath should be reserved for when characters do REALLY stupid things, or establish a duel to the death in my opinion.  Like that guy who slaps Rael in the face or sticks his head in a dragon's mouth... Soul Strands shouldn't even be an issue by then.  Poof, dead.

Most of all though, I'd rather not have to worry about perming at all when my computer burps.  Besides, there are much better things the team could be doing than sifting through a bucket full of new SS reimbursement requests every morning... coding, catching exploiters, running quests, playing their own characters to name a few.  Whatever RP that is lost from the lack of permadeath would be reimbursed tenfold by the added time spent running quests!  

And... a whole lot less people would get fed up after seeing their epic character die and leave.  There's only so many times you can make a new character and walk around the same areas over and over, but a good portion of the server hasn't even been seen by these same people because they're made for lvls 20+.  When most people are close to perming at that level anyhow, it keeps them from exploring said new areas.  I believe that for these reasons, if we did not have a permadeath system, many many more of our old friends would still be with us today.  You make that 2 year old character, get him to epic, feel all the pride in it, and poof, he's dead.  Next you have 2 choices, either make a new character and spend 2 more years trying to get back to where you were (and take it slow, else somebody accuses you of powerlevelling!) just so that you can go explore some new areas again... or switch servers and play some new areas immediately.  Perma Death is bad for player retention.

[jrizz]

I agree with a lot of what lon has said with the exception of the part about having a GM in your group gives you the green light for a SS refund. As a GM playing my PC I have witnessed SS loss 7 times. I have posted support for return of only two of them and only one of those two has gone through. So it is not a auto refund if you have a GM or a WL with you or even one of each.

Of course if you go out in a party to places where every bad guy and good guy is casting half a million spells and buffs so much so that your groups very presence lags the server then your chances get higher for a technical SS loss. So having 4 GMs and 6 WLs with you is a good idea

[jrizz]

Long term, there is nothing less fun to see the lack of respect of deaths. Even in the present shape and form, a single death (except the last one) is regarded as "Oh... it happened again... get up, no time to sleep!".

Death should be so horrible on both an IC and OOC scale that it will actually be feared to death. SS system might not be the best, as fear is generally only struck when approaching the last few SSs... a super heavy XP hit sounds more like the system of choice. Funnily... though... those actually being present during that time (not me) tend to think the opposite.

Well as we have always said we cant force RP. I myself wince at every SS loss I see but on deaths without SS loss I am chevalier. I treat them more like a beat down then a death.

[Weeblie]

Well as we have always said we cant force RP. I myself wince at every SS loss I see but on deaths without SS loss I am chevalier. I treat them more like a beat down then a death.

A high death penalty requires no enforcement of RP-ing of the IC consequences, as the RP-ing of death will (with a higher probability) just grow by itself. One seldom RPs high HP loss unless one tend to feel for that in that particular moment, because there are simply no real mechanical penalty of low HP. If the character would actually start to walk slower, limp, having a harder time to hit the enemy or something similiar, I'm sure it would be quite "auto-RPed".

Whether it is because of a SS-perming system, a heavy XP-loss system... that's highly irrelevant. I'm not so sure if I like or dislike the SS system for the moment. Or even a heavy XP-loss system. I think I'm more and more fond of leaning towards a "high and long time mechanical penalty". Say... simply... the current stat penalties (perhaps even harsher with a greater AB/damage hit) for a RL week? And make the penalties stacking?

It would certainily allow one to do some minor craziness from time to time... but the cost would be too high to do it in a regular fashion. And there would be no real need to have any witness-based reimbursement system at all.

[jrizz]

Too add to your idea. It would also promote people using their secondary PCs more!

[Pibemanden]

I would like to add the option one week or 30 hours IG, simply to make it a bit easier on the people, like myself, who will never have a secondary character due to various reasons.

[Blackguy]

Long term, there is nothing less fun to see the lack of respect of deaths. Even in the present shape and form, a single death (except the last one) is regarded as "Oh... it happened again... get up, no time to sleep!".
 
 Death should be so horrible on both an IC and OOC scale that it will actually be feared to death. SS system might not be the best, as fear is generally only struck when approaching the last few SSs... a super heavy XP hit sounds more like the system of choice. Funnily... though... those actually being present during that time (not me) tend to think the opposite.

 
 I was present during that time. And I didnt think difffrent. I had a level 14 character after 9 months play, with many many many deaths, and it worked. SS is just wrong. plain and simple.

[ycleption]

Perhaps a compromise would be to have both an xp penalty (if not quite so punitive as it was at one time), which would represent the trauma of each death, and a set amount of deaths after which a character perms, which would preserve the lore of the soul mother, but wouldn't have the random aspect that frustrates many players... I don't know that this discussion is really relevant with the MMO coming, but...

[Dorganath]

A few words on the subject:

A chance of Soul Strand loss on death is staying.  

We have been close to getting rid of the whole Grievance process many times because of the load on those who take care of them and the bitterness that some bring to their requests, for Soul Strands or otherwise.

Chance of perma-death has always been a part of my play experience here over the last 3.5 years, and I do remember a system with greater XP loss on death and subsequent deaths.  I bounced my character off Level 10 more times than I care to count over the course of a week.  I lost all the XP I gained on a quest and then some by going out and being foolish afterward.  When I started there was no SMD...no chance for delaying the inevitable except for playing smart.

Having been around before, during and after the much-discussed "Soul Mother Vacation", it is my strong opinion that the rather obvious disrespect for death that some players (not characters) have for death has its origins in that time.  It was the result of an ECDQ, and was intended to last up until the campaign finale a few months later.  Sadly, it didn't make it that far because players pushed their characters beyond the boundaries of good sense because there was no "real" penalty for death or chance of permadeath.  I don't remember how many people literally begged me to reinstate the Soul Mother within only a few weeks of her "vacation" because the RP had suffered, people were taking the "Bindstone Express" back from long trips, and in the group of worst offenders, people were generally reckless.  After this time, a lot of players maintained their bad habits and continued taking undue risks, only getting weepy when they hit their 9th lost Soul Strand at level 12.  Of course there's bad luck sometimes.  Jacchri is a perfect example, and he even permed on a quest I was running, thankfully due to OOC factors.  Yet somehow he managed to hang on.

No one in my knowledge has permed and stayed permed due to a technical glitch.  I can think of two cases where some additional leniency was given due to the circumstances of perming.

Love it...hate it...indifferent to it...the Soul Strand system is staying.  And the Soul Mother is not going on another vacation.

Personally, I like it, and I say this with a Level 28 character that I've spent 3.5 years developing who has 8 lost strands and almost a 1-in-3 chance of loosing one with every death.  Those are rotten odds, so I RP as much as possible and try to avoid death (which any sane person would do) when combat arises.  In my opinion, if you want to have a barbarian who lives and dies by his own blade, then so be it!  I just wouldn't spend much time on developing him, because in any semblance of reality, made-up or otherwise, that barbarian is going to have a short life-span.

Incidentally, if anyone wishes to live on the edge, it is perfectly OK to request that we set your Soul Strand loss to 9 (or 14).  All you have to do is ask!