DTs

[thedagda]

The death system as it is now, is not bad at all.  An improvement to it would be a better cut scene for perming.  I can see where it is hard to lose a character, but after all it is a game.  If you're gonna die....die with your boots on.  Perm a character, why not try something new?  If losing a character is seen as a waste of time invested, isn't the point of playing missed?  The point being to have fun and a release from the daily grind.  Granted I have yet to have an epic level character or even close to that level, but the lowly grunts can be entertaining.

But, as it is there are consequences, even though sometimes it may not always be consequences from ones actions (crashes, lag,etc).  So grab a pop, coffee, beer or other preferred drink and have fun.   Live or die, there's always a new intriguing character should the need arise.

[jrizz]

Well folks time to drop this again

We have had this talk many many times and no matter how many people setup and say "hey this needs to be looked at" the answer is that there are many many people that love it the way it is. So we have many many people on both sides of this issue.

As in all endeavors, examination is the key to growth. Without examination you cant have growth and you will fall behind and stagnate. It is good that we continue to bring up this subject, it is in my opinion the single most important issue of the overall system. We need to look at how to evolve as the player base evolves. The average level is much higher now then it was a few years ago, the builds have gotten better, the areas have changed greatly, the dynamics of how to advance have changed greatly, and much more has changed. All these things say that change has fueled change and if some part of the world needs change to address the evolving population of the community then change it must. So we should continue to be advocates for examination and growth, agents for change where change makes sense.

We should all keep open minds to these issues and to this issue in particular. If fun and balance are our goals then nothing should be set in stone.

[Chongo]

It puts me off that whenever people disagree with a Layonara system we get the "it could be worse!" speech.

 
 I was kidding around chief. It may behoove you to get a feel for the people on the gameworld so you can understand their angles and humor a bit better. That would be the other end of the spectrum from monthly come and go gallery shots.
 
 
 
 I think the DT system is a downer sometimes. I also didn't enjoy it losing hundreds of thousands when I was in the teens with Caern or Hadrian.
 
 Moving away from my jab at 8bit.... It's been mentioned that a DT system breeds folks who build to survive, so far as to be a detriment to the world atmosphere. I actually have thrown that accusation around in the past. But, I'm growing into the opinion that the mere introduction of any punitive death system will breed the same situation to the same scale. It's dependant on the type of player. One shot lives with permadeath? Gold and experience loss? Accumulating stat loss? It doesn't matter, people will keep their angles, and they'll build to them. There are folks on this forum that would look at hardcore one shot permadeath and nothing would change in their characters. There are folks on this forum who would look at that and build the most invincible character possible, or build with a specific level in mind where they would risk peaking until and be more survivable afterwards.
 
 It's almost entirely based on the player, and the gameworld's precedents. A lot of the groans are based around the idea that the gameworld's precedents and standards have dropped, and that this is feeding more and more into the problem. And you know, some pretty weighty minds of Layonara feel this way. I think it's bunk. Standard nostalgia, standard opinions that follow general disillusionment. And it often comes from folks who have drifted far enough away so as to have lost a handle on anything really going on inside. The crowds and styles shift on an hourly basis. The world hasn't changed, the purpose of what's built and what's run as a quest hasn't changed, it's just that we have a lot of history now, and it's bound to run rampant with declarations of golden ages. The world is a much better image of anything it ever was, through the population, through the efforts and refinements of the project teams, through the events being run, and through the literature that is getting better and better and more and more filled in. The only thing that ever changes is that it stops blowing someone's hair back as much as it used to. And those are the personal growing pains everyone faces at multiple and unpredictable stages of their life. I know I have. Friends come and go, newcomers interrupt a comfy feeling. It's bound to hit and my hat's off to everyone who actually sticks with it and grows with the discomfort of growing old.
 
 What's that got to do with DT's? Mostly an aside on any system which is held responsible for negative change.
 
 Now I mentioned one-shot hardcore, I mentioned XP loss. And the big concession that I'll make, and the opinion that I'll hold on this (at least for today), is that our current system sucks you in to an investment. The more and more DT's we allow, the deeper that investment goes. With one-shot hardcore, your investment can be profound, but it doesn't have so much time wrapped into it most often. With XP loss, it's simply getting knocked down, and knowing you'll always be able to get up. With DT's, it's just like the one-shot but the investment becomes more and more a part of your life. If it were 30 SS's... we'd have even more weepy and emotional stories of loss. Though they'd be fewer. What's the right balance? I don't know - we seem to have a world where people can really get into their characters. Is it too much? To little? Dunno. Who does it hit hardest? Sure - new folks feel it a lot. But... as a guide I worked with once said about school and kid's programs for climbing (paraphrased) "You get these teachers that want to see everyone make it to the top of the cliff. So they hold this kid for an hour as he holds frightened to the rope, claws at the wall, and finally is hauled to the top where everyone cheers for him. And yeah, it's great that he's getting those cheers. But for that kid that actually showed excellence, who actually made it to the top on his own in good style, the notion of becoming better or showing excellence is now gone, as it just doesn't matter. The playing field will be levelled and there's nothing to bother striving for." So... I'm of the opinion that there should be learning curves, there should be unfortunate losses, and that it helps create a better atmosphere.
 
 Not saying it doesn't upset me at times though. And tomorrow, I'll likely be pointing out how the vast majority of losses are from bugs, quirks, and slow computers. Dunno.

[Tobias]

I guess its time for another old timer to speak up.
 
    I have been here for fours years with a small 2-3 month break nearing the end of v1. Having one character perm or rather being the second character to perm and to be brought back with thanks to an ECDQ.  I think I can say that I am happy with the current death system. Back in V1 it was xp loss and and chance to lose death token/soul strand was not a happy time. In v1 and early v2 it was very easy to miss that you got a death token/ soul strand and that really sucked when you went and check your bindstone and found out you had four of them. Now we don't have the xp lose nor can you miss that you have you lost a soul strand unless you crashed or that you went afk at the wrong place at the wrong time.
 
    You might not like the death system but it works and as Dorg said people abused it when it wasn't there and I have heard the use of the "Bindstone Express" and even was unfortunate enough to see a couple players do it.  It kills the worth of adventuring if there is no risk.. Hey yeah its great killing and beating things up but when it gets to the point where there is no risk then there is no strategy, there is no planning just mindless wizards, clerics, rangers, and rouges forgetting their class and turning into barbarins and fighters.
 
    Two characters of mine are close to perming out Rurik who I was so happy to get back after the ECDQ I dont' even play anymore. Its not that I am scared of killing him off or having him perm. Its just that I moved on with him playing Quill. Now Quill has 14 DT's/Soul Strand's and I am not scared of having him perm, its just if he is going to Perm its going to have to be something worth while to leave his wife and child behind for. Heck if it fits my schedule I will go with a group to the ends of the earth and try to make it back, but I would not have him go knock on Milaras door and ask for sugar. But not only that I moved on from him and started to play my other character Tobias and again playing Ophelia.
 
    Someone told me that if you stop playing your character its just as good as them perming and if you decide to bring him back for one last adventure then when he perms no one remembers him or that they have lost touched with that character and the hearing about their death is not as drastic as if a character that you have been adventuring/RPing with constantly.
 
    When your character gets older they get more mindful of who is watching them when they die and they have something to live for and that is more then the risk of death on some needless xp run.
 
    It boils down to what they have said time and time again.. Role Play your character and enjoy the time you have with them. If your characters time comes enjoy the part where you can reflect on their life and their growth and listen to other characters talk about them then they never will die. Gotak is not dead.. he lives on through he character and player. "Deathwards are fer Pansies"  That is an epic saying that will forever keep him alive in our minds and as our characters says those words they ones that new him or have met Gotak are able to tell of the meanest, bravest (if thats a word) and craziest dwarf we have ever met.
 
    So go out there and play your character make them immortal in your friends hearts and let them pass on your brave, silly, and crazy moments.
 
 
 And sorry for the rant.. I swear it made sense in my mind! O.o

[Mooneyes]

I appreciate that Tobi:)  You made sense to me.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Shiff's going down fighting a Dragon if it can be arranged  Fighting a Dragon seiging a city

[Script Wrecked]

IMO, the biggest inequity is the randomness of SS loss.

Given that the players who want to keep their character alive tend to stop adventuring on their last SS, the purpose of SS loss being random would seem to be lost; the player isn't going to risk their character, particularly when they are mid to high level.

A more egalitarian system would have the same, fixed number of deaths for everyone. God knows there is enough randomness in combat as to whether your character survives or not.

Regards,

Script Wrecked.

[osxmallard]

The number of SS should be hidden from everyone with the exception of the database server manager.  There wouldn't be the same feeling of dread and it would just be a suprise ending to your characters life.... at least you'd know you're safe if you died less than 10/15 times.

[Lynn1020]

The number of SS should be hidden from everyone with the exception of the database server manager.  There wouldn't be the same feeling of dread and it would just be a suprise ending to your characters life.... at least you'd know you're safe if you died less than 10/15 times.

Great idea then you wouldn't have to worry about reimbursements either.

[Script Wrecked]

And that would remove all those requests for SS reimbursement, because you'd never know if you'd lost one!

[jrizz]

And that would remove all those requests for SS reimbursement, because you'd never know if you'd lost one!

that would make a bunch of folks quiet angry.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

I would prolly be one of them.  could there be a new system?  Sure.  Could there be a better one?  Maybe...  Would I EVER support one that keeps knowledge like that from players?  Never

[Blackguy]

This leads me to another question, probalby not for this thread but. Would the mmo imploy somekind of perm system, leaving a person unable to use a character?

[Script Wrecked]

And that would remove all those requests for SS reimbursement, because you'd never know if you'd lost one!

that would make a bunch of folks quiet angry.

I would prolly be one of them.  could there be a new system?  Sure.  Could there be a better one?  Maybe...  Would I EVER support one that keeps knowledge like that from players?  Never

How about this for a proposition:

If you were to join a world with great RP and a plethora of DM'ed events that had a death system that involved a random chance that you would perm on each death after the first ten after third level, you'd (likely as not) accept it.

You wouldn't be demanding to see the values of whatever tally system they used to keep track of things.

Regards,

Script Wrecked.

[Dorganath]

This leads me to another question, probalby not for this thread but. Would the mmo imploy somekind of perm system, leaving a person unable to use a character?

This is a simple question with a complex answer that has not yet been fully defined.

[Lalaith Va'lash]

Now Quill has 14 DT's/Soul Strand's and I am not scared of having him perm, ..... but I would not have him go knock on Milaras door and ask for sugar.

But, we did take him to knock on Milarra's door with 14 DT Toby!

[Tobias]

But, we did take him to knock on Milarra's door with 14 DT Toby!

 
 
 Yeah, but we forgot the sugar *snaps fingers*

[twidget658]

If you were to join a world with great RP and a plethora of DM'ed events that had a death system that involved a random chance that you would perm on each death after the first ten after third level, you'd (likely as not) accept it.

 
 I can honestly say that I will not get involved with another server that has a perm death system. When I started here, I never knew how attached I would get to my avatars. So knowing that now, I will read about the death systems and if a perm system is in place, I will keep looking. I won't even give the server a shot.

[Script Wrecked]

It is a cow.

However, one of the things a permadeath system does give (at the cost of the loss of our lovingly created characters) is turnover at the top.

Having played on a PW without permadeath, the characters to first make it to the high levels were always the "senior" characters by right of having been around the longest. Even when your character got to those levels, you'd always be on the second (or third) rung, having to defer to those "older and wiser"; there was never any chance of new characters taking charge.

The senior characters became entrenched. In the end, the PW stagnated.

Of course, if you cunningly avoid SS loss although, this is never an issue... *not looking at anyone in particular*

Regards,

Script Wrecked.

[jrizz]

umm looks up. We have that issue here even with the permadeath system. How many of the top rung senior PCs have you seen perm? It is before 21 that gets hit the hardest.

But all that aside I still like having a perma death system. But is ours the best or even all that good? lets just say it could be improved.