Irritated by meta-gaming!

[typically_annoying]

Just lately this has been really irritating me.  I won't deny OOC that Moonlight and Eamane are travelling a dark path, but in-game there are not many that know.  Yesterday, a cleric (who shall remane nameless) came up to Moonlight and said she had changed.  Okay, her clothes are a bit more Corathite now, but she has always worn black .. and I mean always!  She has done no evil acts, so what is he on about?  Her alignment is still good is checked with the spell, although she is moving to neutral

[ZeroVega]

Amen.

We all know it happens, and it's happened with far bigger stuff. Unfortunatly there's no way to contain Meta-gamed Information. Once one person starts using OOC learned information In Character, it usually spreads to other characters too quickly for anyone to stop. (Including GMs) I just try to make it a habit to read Character Developments like a they're totally different stories. Hehe, I'll replace names with made up ones so by the time I'm back in game I don't even remember who it was about.

I would like to see some sort of punnishment for meta-gaming, the biggest problem is... can you prove they did it?  

Good luck. ZV-

[Pen N Popper]

My two cents...  On other PWs where char dev threads are visible only to the DMs, the players have to rely on DMs and their own roleplay to push their own story forward.  Here on Layonara, allowing your fellow players to read your character's personal information provides a unique opportunity to allow them to participate in your own story.

If none of your fellow players new OOCly of your PCs direction, would any existing Corathites even know you existed?  How would you know that they did?  Perhaps the encounter felt OOC or perhaps this player was wanting to do you a favor by providing some RP hooks.  I was not there, of course, so do not know the details.

My own play style is what I term "shallow RP."  By that I mean that most of my emotes/dialogues contain little indication of personality or dreams.  Instead they tend to describe physical attributes or the setting.  An example would be: *shakes ogre gore off of flail with a flick* instead of *sighs at the uselessness of battle as he wipes his last opponent from weapon*.  That being said, though, I truly enjoy listening to and facilitating "deep RP."  When I travel with Isilme I attempt to comment on her brutality, or her desire to continue search out unnecessary battles.  It's not meant to be judgmental but rather as a hook for both Isilme to play off of, but also equally important for our fellow party members to pick up on.  ("Huh, did she just go down that deadend cooridor and slay that stack of ogres for the xp or because of something else?")

PWs are about stories; our own and others.  I truly value being able to read about everyone else's and think it adds great depth to the world.  I guess I'm saying, "Long live meta-gaming!"

FYI... typically_annoying and my own PC have travelled together a good deal and so I feel I may comment here without fear of offending the player.  I also reserve the right for Pig to call her "pretties Isilme" until Pig figures out who this Moonlight person is. :-)

[blinds21]

not to be gross or anything, but uh...i really dig moonlight...

;-) Stick wit it lady.

i understand what your talking about, and I think i know what cleric your talking about too.

[steverimmer]

I would like to see some sort of punnishment for meta-gaming, the biggest problem is... can you prove they did it?  

Well you could if players had conversation logging permanantly switched on

[typically_annoying]

This is not really about that one cleric, that was just one particular incident that stuck out as it was so recent.  It is about meta-gaming in general.  Especially on info that affects relationships and is secret!

Pen N Popper - 3/3/2006  1:14 PM

If none of your fellow players new OOCly of your PCs direction, would any existing Corathites even know you existed?  How would you know that they did?  Perhaps the encounter felt OOC or perhaps this player was wanting to do you a favor by providing some RP hooks.  I was not there, of course, so do not know the details.

My own play style is what I term "shallow RP."  By that I mean that most of my emotes/dialogues contain little indication of personality or dreams.  Instead they tend to describe physical attributes or the setting.  An example would be: *shakes ogre gore off of flail with a flick* instead of *sighs at the uselessness of battle as he wipes his last opponent from weapon*.  That being said, though, I truly enjoy listening to and facilitating "deep RP."  When I travel with Isilme I attempt to comment on her brutality, or her desire to continue search out unnecessary battles.  It's not meant to be judgmental but rather as a hook for both Isilme to play off of, but also equally important for our fellow party members to pick up on.  ("Huh, did she just go down that deadend cooridor and slay that stack of ogres for the xp or because of something else?")

PWs are about stories; our own and others.  I truly value being able to read about everyone else's and think it adds great depth to the world.  I guess I'm saying, "Long live meta-gaming!"

FYI... typically_annoying and my own PC have travelled together a good deal and so I feel I may comment here without fear of offending the player.  I also reserve the right for Pig to call her "pretties Isilme" until Pig figures out who this Moonlight person is. :-)

I love the RP with PIG .. and yeah! he is the only one who won't get his head chopped for calling her Isilme!  PIG's style is simple and effective.  Let's face it . you know OOC about Moonlight, but PIG does not and you play him that way and I value that.

How would you know who the other are?  By word of mouth and rumours!  I know all the Corathites in game, by their bios/devs but I do not contact them as Moonlight doesn't know about them.  She found out about, and contacted the high priestess because she heard another player talking about her.  Eamane found another Corathite, quite by chance .. something in her description prompted a meeting.  So there are ways and means!
 
Hehe .. Why does she run down the corridor after those last few ogres?  Pure bloodlust (after all, she only get 1xp per ogre) !  And peoples comments about her bloodlust and how she should have more respect for life, is one of the things that has pushed her to Corath.  She has changed completely due to in-game events.  So RP-ing does work!

It's great being able to read dev threads and see how everyone is evolving, the info just shouldn't be used that's all.

[SuperMunch]

On the other hand...

Freldo's actually benefited from meta-gaming.

Stuff I post here as Freldo I assume to be part of the game world - all my posts to the Wild Surge (even the one complaining that dwarves don't know how to write, I said it aloud for anyone to hear), the Market Hall's notices and even in my journal (I just assume I can't really keep inane stuff to myself for very long).

I think it's great to have some character I've never met come up to me and say something that was posted on the forums - it gives Freldo a chance to meet a new friend.

On the same hand, I extend my bard knowledge to include some inane information from the forums like the knowledge of a high level character's past great deeds or a little bit from here and there from the Wild Surge and Market Hall threads, nothing more than stuff that gets blown into the wind.

And about punishment for meta-gaming, a friendly OOC tell will go a lot further than PK'ing them "because you're not supposed to know that".  How would you justify, in game, the smackdown on the other character?  If it's meta-game and you don't like it, tell them - resolve it out of character.

[Spider]

my character is not evil, not nasty.. she may turn it by following her new choice,

But not RP'ing against her and just assuming via information on the forum is not only frustrating, in my opinion it destroys what you have built up with your character,

As Zero said, one person says something there not supposed to know "Meta-Gaming" then other people catch wind and so on, then your char is portrayed in a completely different light to the one you have been RP'ing too.

that would just be out of order in my opinion, considering the amount of time you spend RP'ing your character.

[Dorganath]

Keep in mind that there is some information on the forums that is IC and would be common knowledge and/or would be something that was witnessed by other characters had they been, say, walking by the Wild Surge one day.
  RPing knowledge of the deeds of epic characters (on a macroscopic level) is usually fine. RPing that you know the details of those deeds without actually talking to a character that was involved is not. RPing that someone looks "creepy" or "dark" is OK. RPing that you know they're planning X, Y or Z is not, and neither is reading their name tag before you are introduced.
  To me, meta-gaming is RPing OOC information that your character has no business knowing. And I know it can be hard sometimes, but then think about how much OOC info the GM team has and deals with on a daily basis...and those who have several different characters and such.
  It's always good before you speak for your character to ask, "would my character know this?"
  Would people know Isilme's name? Would they know Pig's full name (including his last name) if never given? Even more importantly, would they know what was going in in the hearts and minds of some other character? Even if you the player read all about their character in a CD thread and/or their bio submission, your character would not, and that is the key to the whole issue.
  As GMs, we frequently remind players to not look at labels. Things aren't always what they seem to be or how they're labeled...especially on quests, when we might use NPCs and creatures because of how they look andfor some completely different purpose.
  At some point in time, most of us will make some kind of RP mistakes. The way I like to handle it is to either call them into question IC (such as: "er...I'm sorry, have we been introduced?" after another characer uses my character's name for instance) or by sending an OOC tell and often following up IC (i.e. "[Tell] only 3 people know about that and you're not one of them" followed by "*laughs* Where do you get your information?"). Unfortunately, it's going to happen. It's best to deal with it immediately rather than let it continue to a point where it's more than just annoying.

[typically_annoying]

SuperMunch - 3/3/2006  1:42 PM
Stuff I post here as Freldo I assume to be part of the game world - all my posts to the Wild Surge (even the one complaining that dwarves don't know how to write, I said it aloud for anyone to hear), the Market Hall's notices and even in my journal (I just assume I can't really keep inane stuff to myself for very long).

I think it's great to have some character I've never met come up to me and say something that was posted on the forums - it gives Freldo a chance to meet a new friend.

The trade hall, wild surge, etc are all assumed to be IC notice boards.  And using this info is of course quite acceptable.

[Leanthar]

A few things:
1) Players should NEVER Meta-Game. It is not right, it does nothing but irritate people, and it shows that one does not know how to RP in the proper way. Gain your information with conversations (in whatever way) in game OR in the IC forum areas. Character developments are not meant to be 'in game' knowledge for characters.
2) In the future, as LORE is rolled out more and more things get done, chances are that players will have their development threads private to themselves and GM's only. That will probably stop 70% of the silly (and wrong) meta gaming that is happening. But we can never stop all of it.
3) Everybody, even the best RP'ers out there, need to make a concentrated effort to not meta-game--and sometimes it takes one to stop and think about a situation before asking.

Lastly, we (the team and I) pride ourselves in being able to bring in new players to RP and teaching them the ropes on how to RP very well. The one problem with this is that they are learning and can and will mess up some times (human nature after all). The other problem is that some of these players just don't care and do what they want no matter what--and those player are eventually encouraged to find another server or they get themselves in so much trouble they get banned.

Only so much we can do with controlling meta-gaming...but we do try.

[Beeep]

typically_annoying - 3/3/2006  2:36 PM

I love the RP with PIG .. and yeah! he is the only one who won't get his head chopped for calling her Isilme!  PIG's style is simple and effective.  Let's face it . you know OOC about Moonlight, but PIG does not and you play him that way and I value that.

Just before you PK or get real annoyed with anyone but Pig calling you Islime, you have introduced yourself to others but it. At least Surdy has been introduced by that name, he has never heard you use Moonlight when asked. And yes he has asked, thought it is some time ago....

[Guardian 452]

What bout players who force their characters down the path of Evil ignoring their current alignment?  that's metagaming?

[typically_annoying]

Beeep - 3/3/2006  3:45 PM
Just before you PK or get real annoyed with anyone but Pig calling you Islime, you have introduced yourself to others but it. At least Surdy has been introduced by that name, he has never heard you use Moonlight when asked. And yes he has asked, thought it is some time ago....

Please note, I said ... "So please STOP calling her Isilme when you don't know her!" ... with the emphasis on not knowing her.  If she knows you, she will politely tell you of the change.  If she doesn't know you, why are you calling her by her name?  My problem is with people using her name because they see it above her head.  It has happened to you many a time .. I even think I have been guilty of it.

Guardian 452 - 3/3/2006  3:48 PM
What bout players who force their characters down the path of Evil ignoring their current alignment?  that's metagaming?

This is the way things work on Layonara.  If people could create a character Evil to start with, I am sure they would.  You still have to RP towards it.  Moonlight, is struggling just to get to Neutral.  It was a gradual in-game change, before being allowed to RP it ... eventually the change will happen.  But I don't see it as meta-gaming, as I haven't used any OOC knowledge IC.  Even all the information Moonlight knows about Corath, was obtained in-game from talking to and meeting with people.  Someone even provided her a book.  Even the meetings with Corathites, and she's only met 2 have been done RP.  So, it doesn't have to be meta-gamed.

[feniox]

I haven't read all of the replies, so apologies if I repeat something that has already been said.

Meta-gaming is the reason I stopped doing a character development thread once I had achieved my PRC, even though I wanted to continue it just for fun, because its just one more way people can learn things they shouldn't know. Having said that, there are ways that people can learn in-game about your character, without you yourself telling them, I know things about certain characters in game simply because I am friends with others who "keep tabs" on them, or similar.

Also, I don't think all meta-gaming is intentional, sometimes information just gets confused, such as the other days when I was talking to Elladan, and he was RPing that he had never met me, despite being on three quests together, simply because he thought he'd only known me OOC and wasn't sure if we'd met before. No, that isn't a meta-game of any kind, but its an example of how OOC and IC information can get easily crossed and cause confusion which results in a character knowing/remembering things that they should/shouldn't know (delete where applicable).

That's the main reason that I stopped reading character development threads too, I find it much easier to RP not knowing something about a character if I don't actually know myself, rather than reading it on the forum and then having to try and remember that I don't know certain things all the time.

That's the only solution I can think of really, is to just not read other people's development threads, or other things that you shouldn't know about such as "A note posted in elven" if you cant read elven.

[Harlas Ravelkione]

I enjoy reading the character development threads and I hope that others do this as well. Many players put much time and effort into formulating and creating a storyline and backgrounds for their characters and I find it a shame if other players do not acknowledge those efforts in reading and enjoying the stories that are in those threads.

Of course, any information gained from that thread is OOC and cannot be used in-game, but that does not mean one cannot enjoy reading it and gain some insights on the character. Even if you cannot use it in-game it may make meeting and interacting with some of these characters much more interesting and you may learn more about their personalities in game.

Personally I keep character development threads not only for myself and the GM team, but also in hopes of that others may enjoy reading it.

Harlas

[ZeroVega]

I like the idea of making it an OPTION upon creating a Character Development Thread, whether or not you'd like to keep it "secret" (to just you and the GMs, or public). If you make it public, you will know it comes with the risk of players reading and metagaming and if you feel there is information in there that people shouldn't even know OOC, then keep it private. Heck you could even make two threads, one private and one public. One for GMs to track character progression and the other for the entertainment of fellow players.  

[Dorganath]

I'm guessing once LORE is in full swing, the "Friend" function will allow one to be selective about who can and cannot read their Char. Dev. threads.
  Just a guess of course, but it wouldn't surprise me.

[Weeblie]

Hey... Isi... Erh.. Moonlight isn't a Corathine... Nope... No way... Impossible... Well, she has wielded a shield with a skellie hand a few times, but still... Corathines are BAD guys... And she's not that! Nope! Never!

*head explodes in confusion (so typically_annoying can't chope it off )*

Messing up names is a classical meta-gaming situation. Accidently did it myself today when speaking with Sturdy (used his "OOC"-name). Unfortunely, noticed my mistake a few milliseconds too late (already pressed enter). So a hint is: Check the notes (if you are taking any) before writing anything, even if it means that you are responding a few seconds slower!

And on the CDT topic. Reading them isn't a bad thing. It's usually quite funny to know what others thinks about one self. And, one can steal some ideas from others too.

typically_annoying: Just wanted to say... Good work! And, don't let this discourage you from writing in your CDT. Your PC is becomming very, very interesting...

[Ne'er]

Let's play devil's advocate a moment on the name issue. It bothered me when I played a character that NEVER introduced himself by his real name. People would say: "Hello Ne'er!" and I would have to correct them in a tell saming "Hey, I introduced my self as Sam" and they would always politely correct themselves with a simple "//sorry, ignore last line" or such.

Now, I can completely understand the reasoning for why people would read those labels. I for one don't always memorize the way that all characters intrroduce themselves, and lets face it, most of of talk to at least 100 different characters. That's a lot of introductions to memorize, and frankly in a game it is a lot of work to make sure you have paid attention to everyone's introduction.

So, basically what I am trying to say is: It is annoying, but it makes sense. Just correct them OOC and for the most part people are cool with that.

As for meta-gaming dieties and alignments, yeah that's wrong. Unless of course they have the symbol on a shield or flag, then it only makes sense for a character to jump to conclusions.