My thoughts on PvP

[Laldiien]

[SIZE=16]Rather than keep the monstrous races thread alive, I want to start a new one for the discussion of PvP. [/SIZE][SIZE=16]For me personally, I have never, not in 20 years of gaming, had a positive experience with PvP. I have seen immature children exercising their might; I have seen grief-gangs running around, torturing lower levels; I have seen players unhappy because they were mocked because they didn't want to engage in personal combat against someone that knew they could never beat. [/SIZE]  [SIZE=16]I don't like PvP in any incarnation; I never have, and I never will. The only possible exception is the Arena, and even then, with a very limited scope. Dorg mentioned opening up PvP in the hopes the community would be mature enough to handle it. In less than a month, the GM's on the boards have chided the community for meta-gaming, keeping it civil on the boards, what have you. The only *possible* way for this to be fair is to remove the challenge rating from a characters description *AND* to allow the possibility of a lost Soul Strand, with no chance of reimbursement. (Using this as as example only for illustration) Jareg decides he wants to run the foul Half-Orc Honora out of town, he should not know her challenge and he should accept that he may have his butt handed to him with a lost soul strand for his efforts.[/SIZE]
 [SIZE=16]My opinion: Opening PvP is a mistake. It will exacerbate the communities existing internal strife and create more. For those saying there is none, Read the "[/SIZE][SIZE=16]Why don't druids get any respect[/SIZE][SIZE=16]" and "[/SIZE][url=thread-view.asp?tid=34982&posts=46&start=1][SIZE=16]Monstrous races[/SIZE][/url][SIZE=16]" and "[/SIZE][url=thread-view.asp?tid=34816&posts=3&start=1][SIZE=16]Rumors and Suppositions[/SIZE][/url][SIZE=16]" threads. This community has fractures. They are not large ones, most are just the normal "I'm right, you're not"mentality that comes when you put any group of people together. But make no mistake, it will increase. Ingame and out, this will breed tension.[/SIZE]
  [SIZE=16]All this being said, the Team has said "This is what we are doing". I don't like it, but I will live with it. Thisis the world they created, and I want to stay. But I honestly feel that the decision is ill-considered and will likely be removed due to player complaints within 2 months of deployment. I'd like to be wrong.[/SIZE]

[Witch Hunter]

I think that the best way to add pvp is to add a small nifty item that when used on a player will give its target a conversation option to accept PVP or not, if accepted then PVP between the two is allowed and so forth so forth (though the lose of soulstrands shouldnt be possible, we're trying to have fun after all, and there is no gain to either sides beyond roleplay to such a situation... so it wouldnt make sense, its not like you're farming xp)

If denied well, its denied
the only difference from what we have now is that players wont need world leaders/DMs to approve PVP and could approve it between themselves.

[Laldiien]

Witch Hunter - 2/24/2007 7:49 AM*snip* (though the lose of soulstrands shouldnt be possible, we're trying to have fun after all, and there is no gain to either sides beyond roleplay to such a situation... so it wouldnt make sense, its not like you're farming xp)

 So you do not find Quests or Adventuring fun? You risk your strands there, why not when you are PvPing? And it does make sense. If you are going to challenge someone, there should be the added danger of loss. If there is no danger of loss, there is no sting of death. Once you lose your fear of death, you do foolish things, like, say, challenge Lin'da. "oh lol lol, wow, what great fun"

[DMOE]

Witch Hunter - 2/24/2007  12:49 PM  If denied well, its denied

 Unfortunately this would not stop the people who presently hide behind the PvP rules from continuing to do so.
  I know I can't be the only person who is annoyed when people do that.
  Nor would it stop people from trying to goad characters into a fight and then mocking them for refusing.
  I too would dearly like to believe that as a community we are mature enough to handle this...but I do have my concerns we aren't the same as Laldiien.
  I also agree with him that if this system does come into play we need to remove the challenge ratings from peoples character descriptions.
I am sure the team have put a lot of thought into this and I trust them in its implementation.  I just hope the community can repay the trust they are putting in us by handling it in a responsible manner rather than abusing it for their own amusement.

[Witch Hunter]

Of course I find quests and adventuring fun, where did I say I don't? but in such an event I gain experince, lots of it too - in a roleplaying scenerio between to players who decide to PVP - For the sake of doing it without going "OMG NO!@#@!#@!#!@#!!!" moments after and being frusterated.

Perhaps instead of a soulstrand lose you could simply do the reflection period with no grave to return and pray to - theres your lose, spend 2-3 hours with low stats and such.


And true, some players will still hide behind the no pvp rule but that's how things are, not much can be done about that.

[aragwen]

I am not really for it neither against it, but one very valid comment in my opinion is the fact that soul strand could be lost. I understand the reasoning for adding this to the world and if handled maturely and responsibly could add a lot of roleplay opportunities.
  Now I also understand that we all here to have fun, but while having fun it should still be in character and make roleplay sense. So if there are no consequences to PvP thenpeople will just doitfor thefun and not because it really makes sense. My biggest fear is it then evolves into something similiar than World of Warcraft were people are constantly challenging and fighting each othereverywhere.
  Now if you want to practise your skill with a friend then the arena is still there, where no soul strands are lost and you suffer no death penalties.
  But if you challenge a drow for example in the middle of Hlint to fight and you kill him there or you get killed, that is death as much as you have died to a hostile creature. And I cant see the justification for the soul mother looking away. This challenge should be taken seriously and I personally only think it will be taken seriously if it has consequences such as losing a soul strand. The same consideration should be taken by any person to actually go as far as to kill his opponent.
  So I think a situation where both characters get the change to accept the challenge fully knowing the consequences will not only limit the "abuse" of PvP but will also make more sense.
  Please not the thoughts expressed here are my personal thoughts and in no way represent the GM team's views on this.

[Weeblie]

PvP will not be opened in the "complete free PvP style á la WoW" but instead, the request-accept way will be the one (just like how it is done already, with the difference that a WL nor a DM has to be the "middle hand" ).

I think the reason for no SS loss in PvP is that SS losses will seriously increase the Player to Player conflicts (differ from Character to Character conflicts). I would never ever request PvP if there is any chance I would be able to inflict a SS loss on someone else, EVEN if I had the permission of the other person.

I would classify anyone who's only afraid of dying with his or her PC if there are any game mechanic penalties to be a rather poor roleplayer. A death is a death regardless whether GP/XP/SS losses are present or not.

And, as Dorganath has mentioned. This system can be closed any second if it is shown that it's not working very well, to let the old PvP rules apply yet again.

[Pen N Popper]

I am absolutely against PvP myself due to the amount of trouble it will invariably lead to. If we can't as a community be trusted not to metagame dieties, then why would anyone think we could handle PvP?
  That said, here is the quote from http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=30619&start=1
[INDENT]  We are going to allow more PvP in certain areas, called siege areas.  
[/INDENT]   What this implies to me is that I can opt out of PvP by staying out of these areas.
 
  The only time I saw PvP work well was on a server that literally only had levels 2 - 4 (with WL types being 5 or 6). This was a permadeath server. PvP was serious business with serious consequences, had to be approved by a PC kingdom leader, and was on a completely level playing field due to the tight level range.

[Leanthar]

We are going to do two things... and yes they are in testing stages and depending on the maturity of the community they could be ripped out.   1) We will have an item in a characters inventory that they can use to request PvP with another character. The other character in turn must use their item on the requester...then PvP can happen. But PvP can not happen (for either character) again for 60 RL minutes (cool down sort of period).   2) We will (at some point in the future) I hope have PvP zones that will be like a "capture the flag" sort of thing where players will be fighting over towers/forts/keeps and perhaps resources (of some kind or another) in that location. But this is a full PvP area and will not be "required" to explore or have fun--so if you don't like it stay out of it. With that said...sadly nothing has started on this system and it is looking like it never will as there is little to no activity from the team on it. So it may never happen.   Have faith people, breath. If you don't like PvP don't engage in it--simple as that. If people grief players rest assured they will not be in the community for very long--simple as that.
  //Edit.... since my sanity has already been questioned on this post.
  There will of course be an RP reason to do #2 above, otherwise why would I ask/try to have it implemented? RP is what this server is about--I am not going to implement something just to implement it. Lord knows we already have more than enough on our plate than to put more work on our plate. I will not go down a path of researching (let alone implementing) without thinking things through, getting input and feedback, and ensuring it is all based around RP reasons. You won't always know the RP reason but it is always there.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Perhaps I have more faith in the community than many, but... I honestly think that this inclusion will work, and will have the intended positive effect.

That said, time will tell. And if I'm right, I reserve the right to let off a good-natured "I told you so." You naysayers get the same if you're right.

Personally, I have never been a fan of "open" PvP. However, the PvP allowed with WL or DM interaction has always seemed great... Except for one thing: There's not always an WL or DM around who has a spare moment to assess the situation and click on the wand. They're busy people; no fault of theirs. This will take them out of the loop on this, and... I think that, aside from a few of the newer players, the PvP tool will be used with regard to RP rather than anything else.

And if nothing else, "Pyyran uses PvP Wand" puts across the idea that my threat when "Pyyran draws his sword" is real. More than enough to end most conflicts then and there.

[Dorganath]

Guys, as Leanthar said above and as I said at least once in the "monstrous race" thread....
  We are not starting up open PvP. We never said we were, and as far as I know, we have no plans to do so. Please do not freak out about open PvP, grief gangs or hyperactive kids out to prove something.
  And once more for emphasis...
  People who abuse this system in either way will be dealt with and/or we'll just turn it off.

[Nyralotep]

And that is why I continue to love Layo.  There are lots of PvP servers out there but I just don't like PvP in general with some limited RP exceptions like in the Arena.  Whatever Leanthar is doing I am sure it will work out great like everything else.

[LynnJuniper]

Mostly I agree with Laldiien , however, coming from a Ragnarok Server where PVP was allowed and people would just come up and SPLAT. I'm kind of jaded. I do think we're better than that. I do agree that there would be some uses for the PVP though that would fall into good rp, and with the way its being implemented , I have faith in it. Ill use a few nights ago as an example.

Rayenoir, Rhynn and Ael were Rping. Ael kept running off. There was something (I wont go into it) causing this , that Rhynn and Raye wanted to take care of. In which case the PVP That would have made sense in this situation would be for Rhynn to want to use a hand spell to keep Ael down. It wouldn't have been humane but it would have been the 'last resort' for Rhynn if she believed Ael was truly in danger. Circumstances like that I can see as fully fitting the rp need for PVP and even then could be played out through rp and rolls.

I have to admit though:

Leanthar - 2/24/2007  8:28 AM

 We will (at some point in the future) I hope have PvP zones that will be like a "capture the flag" sort of thing where players will be fighting over towers/forts/keeps and perhaps resources (of some kind or another) in that location. But this is a full PvP area and will not be "required" to explore or have fun--so if you don't like it stay out of it.

Reminds me of Ragnarok's War of Emperium...and that was about the only thing there that I liked.


EDIT: Fixing Laldiien's name, for some reason my brain always registered it as Laiiden before this point.

[Ravemore]

Just my two cents... Unlike many of the PVP servers and games I have played, there is some serious thought and safeguards planned here. It looks to me like there will be a lot of choice on the PC level, and oversight and consequences from the GM level. If you don't like PVP, you will not have to do it... and if you grief others or abuse it, you won't be here long. I think it will work and add a lot of RP potential. There will always be those who will abuse things like this, we just have to allow them to exercise their free will and deal the smackdown with a ban if they knowingly abuse it. I also think there should be no SS loss...but what about some minor XP loss? You die and loose 1,000xp. It annoys, but does not run the risk of loosing your PC forever to the Soul Mother. Or perhaps some equal xp loss to the victor and defeated? I would think twice whether my pvp was required if I knew I was going to pay a price for winning. :-)

[Drizzlin]

Stephen_Zuckerman - 2/24/2007  8:50 AM

Perhaps I have more faith in the community than many, but... I honestly think that this inclusion will work, and will have the intended positive effect.

That said, time will tell. And if I'm right, I reserve the right to let off a good-natured "I told you so." You naysayers get the same if you're right.

Personally, I have never been a fan of "open" PvP. However, the PvP allowed with WL or DM interaction has always seemed great... Except for one thing: There's not always an WL or DM around who has a spare moment to assess the situation and click on the wand. They're busy people; no fault of theirs. This will take them out of the loop on this, and... I think that, aside from a few of the newer players, the PvP tool will be used with regard to RP rather than anything else.

And if nothing else, "Pyyran uses PvP Wand" puts across the idea that my threat when "Pyyran draws his sword" is real. More than enough to end most conflicts then and there.

I agree with you in the respect of having faith in the community. I think the pvp will be fine. There will always be the ones, or exceptions, that cause problems. However the difference with Layo and the rest of the servers/games I have played, is that Layo has away of weeding out those exceptions.

Maturity, common sense, and respect for your fellow player. This server is full of those three things, from the staff down to the newer players.

[Drizzlin]

I always play on pvp servers in any game I play. Layo has really been my only exception. I love the challenge and the enjoyment of pvp. 90% of the time the systems are horribly flawed or simply put they are the same thing over and over. I did play on a pvp nwn server once that had the same rule that Layo has of "you must get permission from the other player", but you didn't need a dm witness. On that server there was pvp all the time, becaue it was set up as a good vs evil server. There were people who did not pvp at all and then those who you knew would. It was a great system, and that server's community couldn't hold a candle to Layonara's community. If they made it work, I know we can, and we can do it better.

[Laldiien]

Eight-Bit - 2/25/2007 3:04 PM I think everyone needs to just chill out and wait. You're forgetting what server you're playing on. Layonara has been PvP free for as long as I have been here and Leanthar is taking a bold step forward in giving everyone the game they want to play. Instead of worrying about it, or claiming it will have no positive effect on Layonara, you should wait and see. .

 I have not forgotten what server I play on, nordo I think anyone isneeding to chill. I posed a very civil response to something I did not like. There were opinions supporting and opinions opposing. Leanthar weighed in, as did a few other GM's. That does not change my misgivings, not does it make the it palatable, but I am perfectly willing to wait and see.
  I do take exception to the "Leanthar is taking a bold step forward in giving everyone the game they want to play." Everyone who? I don't want it; I loathe PvP. There are others, I'm sure. Please don't speak for me, I'm capable of it myself.

[Niles09]

Im just glad that people hardly will be able to hide behind the pvp rules as they are in place now, in the end I think it will only cause better roleplay, that people think twice before mocking someone.

[Polak76]

I've played many PvP servers and absolutely enjoy it.  Typically the fashion they were conducted was to initiate a sledging match followed by sending the opposition a tell for PVP.  If they accepted, both players click 'dislike' on the party menu and battle begins.

I think PvP can work here but its going to take alot of effort and maturity.  Regulating it with the use of an item in the inventory i believe is a step in the right direction.  Taking the diffuclty factor from character descriptions & server status are also important factors in my opinion.

The problem I forsee is that becuase Layonara has been starved of PvP for so long, it will be abused the moment it is released to the players.  I also believe meta-gaming abused, however in both cases I hope I'm wrong.

All in all though, PvP is definately exciting and brings a new dimension to this game, especially if when/if they implement area's for it.  I've enjoyed PvP on other worlds and losing battles is often more fun than winning them, plus it adds to further developing a characters bio (ie, now has a hatred for all toranites!...then again, who doesn't?).

So best of luck with it and I hope to see it used sensibly in future.

Polak76

[AeonBlues]

Is there any way we could implement sub duel PvP combat?  I think brawling would be much more common then fights to the death. It would also negate the "hiding behind no PvP" issue.  Dwarfs for instance like to brawl.  I know sometimes RP may generate a legitimate fight to the death, but much more often then not the RP would result in someone getting knocked out and thrown into mud.

What I don't want to see is high school bully RP.  Where character say things are are mean, rude, or hostile, then they are insulted by another character, and then try to kill the character that insulted them.   That is just generating RP with the intention to PK someone.

Aeon Blues

EDIT: P.S. The issue of removing the challenge rating is a tough one.  The reason is that there are server rules related to what level is required to be on what server.  If you walk into hint, and organize a party to go to Dregar, then you have to know for sure  you are not taking a level 7 or lower character with you, as that might bring down the wrath of a DM on you.