My/our contribute ion to Layonara future

[Varka]

Yes…
The title does not say much but let me explain the “red tread” of this post.
During my time on Layonara (in game as well on the website) I have seen and learned many things.
This has resolved in some ideas that I would like to share.
Is it only ideas and nothing more - I did not make this post to aim at any one…etc. etc.
Below are the listed areas.

- Playable races on Layonara
- Mages, magic and schools
- Character approval including learning languages

PS: MOST OF THESE IDEAS CAN ONLY BE IMPLEMENTED FOR NWN2


1) Playable races on Layonara
Layonara gives the players a lot of opportunities to play different races (combined with exceptional classes), but should it be like that?

Drow:
I have seen a lot good players out there managing the “drow” race quiet well but that is not the problem. The problem is the players around the drow.

I see different sides here which have to be taken into aspect.
a. We have the Handbook which describes the drow and their actions
b. Further Hlint has had around 4 attacks just to make players aware of how drow is. Maybe there has even been more quests/games with drow to show their real nature.
c. Layonara allows players to play a good drow which needs a proper background etc. to be able to pass as a player.

Then if we look at the in game how it really works.
We have active drow players and we have tne NPC drow. And as a person behind the computer screen we know who is good/bad and acts by it - sadly.  Should it really be like this?

Every 2 weeks a new post about drow being god/bad is posted. It seems no matter what the Team does to make drow look like a bad race – it simple does not work.

CONCLUSION:
Therefore with an “in-game” perspective I believe that the Team has to consider the following.
Should Drow be a playable race or not? Should the aspect of drow on Layonara be changed to god?


Subjective (and get ready to get furious)
I know drow has xp-penalties (as many other races) but I still see it as one of many races as a power builder.  Xp-penalties in my opinion are not really a “way” to come around this compared to what advantages the race has. Further I would like to “put” the following playable races into the same category of “questionable playable races for Layonara future”: Asimar and tiefling

But let me quickly ask you then the following question. Where does the line go? What races should be playable?

I fore instance play a dwarf. +2 con and -2 cha and I choose to play a fighter. Does that make me a PowerBuilder as well? Where is the line?


Reasons for not playing Asimar and tiefling:
“In-game” I see them “often” walking through Hlint which makes me think?
Does heaven and hell really want to mix so much with mortal? Don’t they have other things to do?

I played with Varka a scene over a few days where I found out that among “us” there were “Angels” and “Devils” walking.
Imagine that your character finds out he/she stands and speaks with a being which is partly Angel. I would fall back over and be most honoured. Again this is how I reacted “in-game” where others believes that walking among “Angels” and “Devils” is the most normal thing. Like breathing air.
Where is the line again but let me remind you – we are playing in a low-level-magic-world which for me in some degree would have some influence on this aspect.




2) Mages, magic and schools
A few months ago I thought of making a specialist mage but asked around for the advantages and disadvantages. Here I found out (due to MY research) in Layonara it does not benefit you so much. “Better play a generalist” most answers were. How come?
Many spells has been changed to balance the game and to be an “all around mage” which can be good in any case – invisibility (Illusionists) sneaking, Buff stats and mass-haste (Transmutter) before fight, first attack on foe with ice storm, fireball etc. (envoker)
I have an idea how this could be done otherwise.

Let Layonara mage get their old spells back where “they had power” BUT let mages become specialist only. The rules for being a specialist can maybe be done in many ways (this I don’t know how is work on Layo.) but imagine this.
Mages would be different, there would not be the same spells used every single time…
And Illusionists would really have the “spot light” if a group in jail had to sneak out using invisibility, change self (to look like a guard) and much much more.
But if the Illusionists would be in a situation with undead – here he would not be of much help.
So advantages and disadvantages for the mages.

CONCLUSION:
Should Layo become a place with only mages as specialists but with stronger spells and fewer?



3) Character approval including learning languages
I have seen people learning languages in-game as well as writing it in Character approval that they learned a language. If you look at it there is nothing wrong– by the first look of it.

Yes, learning languages is possible if you really put credit into it. Further if you are a smart person and have a flair for it – then it is even easier.
I just want to point out a few things:
Lately this has become a bigger and bigger trend that elves want to speak dwarves, and dwarves like drow etc. Why?
Besides RP, explorations, GM quests and crafting … learning a new language is now number 5 on the list.

And without wraping it in I think it is silly.

Why do you want learn a new language?
Answer: - - 10 pages of explanation the reason why - - NNAHH – wrong answer
The real answer is: “Because it is cool to understand what “others” are saying and they don’t know I understand them”

Further – Learning a language takes fist of all a real teacher and not some dumb barbarian battle rager by the name Varka.


Then it comes:
Just write it in the Character approval that your PC knows languages – have enough int. points and you are ready to go.
This can to some extend to exploit and therefore I question if this should even be allowed at all.
Let me give you a really extreme case.


THIS EXAMLPE IS SILLY but I did not want to make a new PC - just to show you the idea.

Name: aaaaa
Races: Human
Age: 18
Class:  Mage/necromancy
Int: 18

Due to the normal rules about int. I can have 8 languages in all and how do I get them the easiest way .  

Make up a Story:
aaaa was the apprentice bbbbbb.
Many years aaaa studied magic and travelled around the world with bbbbbb so therefore he learned many languages from bbbbb.
Now aaaa is ready to see the world.
GM: Please be a bit more specific how aaa learned all languages please.

1. Eidt:
aaaa was the apprentice bbbbbb.
Many years aaaa studied magic and travelled around the world with bbbbbb who was a merchant. Bbbbb traded with all races and therefore knew a lot of languages. Aaaa learned these languages from bbbbb to become a merchant himself (even though aaaa is a mage from day 1 he enters Layo).
Now aaaa is ready to see the world.
GM: Please be a bit more specific how aaaa learned languages of the devil and angel please:

2. Eidt:
aaaa was the apprentice bbbbbb.
Many years aaaa studied magic and travelled around the world with bbbbbb who was a merchant. Bbbbb traded with all races and therefore knew a lot of languages. Bbbb was also a specialist in teleportation and therefore they went to the abyss for trades as well. Bbbbb was really powerful.
Aaaa learned these languages from bbbbb to become a merchant himself.
Now aaaa is ready to see the world.
GM: Okay. So bbbb is a specialist in teleportation. How come you are a necromancer?

3. Eidt:  New class – mages/teleporter
GM: Okay but learning 8 languages besides magic takes time so you Character can not be 18.

4. Eidt:  Ages: 24
GM: Maybe 40 is more appropriated

5. Eidt:  Races: Tielfling (something that fir sure gives +2 int)
   Ages 120
   Gives you the devils ear
   + Adds another 2 languages to the list.


This is just a silly but an extreme example. I hope you got the idea…

CONCLUSION:
Should it be possible to learn new languages or have more languages? Just by writing it in the character approval (the easy way)?
Should it be possible to learn a new languages or have more languages through in-game? Or even both?


Summarize:

1.   Drow, asimar and tiefling. Should they be playable races?
2.   Should Layo become a place with only mages as specialst but with stronger spells and fewer?
3.   Should it be possible to learn new languages or have more languages? Just by writing it in the character approval (the easy way)?  Should it be possible to learn new languages or have more languages through in-game? Or even both?


My answers:
1-   No
2-   Yes
3-   No, no, no

[jrizz]

you know the mage idea is a good one. It would be the end of the "buff monkey mage" and would promote group play even more. On the other side it would greatly weaken mages in comparision to clerics, in terms of "buff monkey" status.

[Weeblie]

Okay... A few thoughts here.

1) I don't agree completely with you on this point.

I think they should be playable races, but restricted, just like the CN alignment.

No offense meant... But it sometimes almost feels like though we are already having another drow invansion in Hlint.

2) It's a good idea, but... I can't agree on this. One of the funniest parts with playing a wizard is to collect all spells (note that I haven't got any wizard here on Layo), in my opinion.

But making specialized wizards better at their specialization is definitely a good idea.

Hehe... If we don't look at the RP reasons, in NWN, you don't pick the school you want actually. Instead, you chooses the school you least want and pick an opposed school for that.

3) I also think it should be much, much harder to get an ear approved at character creation.

Right now, it's nothing "special" with say, an elven ear. Too many non-elves have that one.

All the language ears could have a much higher value if they were more rare.

But, I do think it should be possible to learn new languages in-game. Though... It should take more time than what it usually does now.

(Oh... And maybe a way to distinguish between how good you knows a language? I bet a human who has just recently learnt elven won't speak/understand it nearly as good as a "pure" elf... )

[Varka]

Thank you both for the reply.......
Good to know what people out there thinks as well.

[Talan Va'lash]

clarification: you can have one bonus language, that is, languages beyond your native language(s), for every 1 point of your natural int MODIFIER.

Therefore a human wizard with an 18 int could know 4 languages beyond common (common doesn't count.)
or an elven wizard with an 18 int could know 4 languages beyond elven (I think in this case common would count toward the 4.)

If you recieve multiple racial languages all but one count against your total. example:

Tiefling - gets common for free, and also gets abyssal or infernal (demonic or devil...ish heh) but the latter counts against his total. If his Int is only 10 he still gets his second language because its a racially granted language, but can never learn another. If he has 12 int, he can never learn another since his fiendish language takes up 1 slot. If he has a 14 int he can learn 1 more language at some point in his career.

Layonara does not allow the PnP rule of spending skill points on learning a language. (this is mostly because there is no way to do it in the game mechanic. We cannot "subtract" skill points from people without rendering their characters invalid.)

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Opinion about limits on drow and tieflings/aasimar:

I agree with you partially Varka.

While I agree that these races are overplayed as PCs, I do strongly believe that they should be playable. I think the way to handle this situation is the way it has been handled here before in the (far) past. A system of quotas, either on the total number of active chars of a given subrace or, more practically, a quota on the number of a given subrace that will be approved each month (or some other time period.)

Leanthar has mentioned publicly in past posts that it is possible that the stringent rules about playing evil characters and the restrictions on PvP may be changing in the future once a good system is put in place to ensure that allowing such things doesn't come with the negative side is visible on many servers that allow them.

I think that such changes will go a long way to fostering "proper" rp of some of these subraces, since at the moment, if you wished to play an archetypal drow, you would not be able to. I would wager that a lot of people that have drow characters would have liked to have played a more typical drow, or at least started them as evil even if they became good later.

Heck, if there was PvP I'd make a drow character who's sole purpose was to get beaten up in hlint after trying to do something nefarious.

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Regarding ECL and powerbuilding:

My advice in understanding ECL is to play a character with an ECL of 2 or higher. I have played a drow character on this server and I could make a human character more powerful faster just by virtue of the sheer level advantage he would have over the drow character.

If a human fighter with the same stat set, feats, skills, and gear as a drow fighter (minus the racial modifications) were to kill an identical set of creatures (say... 10,000 ogres or something, thereby granting them the exact same "XP opportunity") and then fight each other, the human fighter would win just by virtue of having more levels from the same "XP opportunity" as the drow character.

+2 int and cha aren't very large compared to the benefits gained by 2 more levels (+~20 hp, +2 ab, feats, skills etc.)  

The fight would be slightly more matched between a drow caster and a human caster by virtue of the drow's SR, but a drow's chance of resisting a spell cast by someone two levels higher than him is 40% so its not at all as if the drow would be immune, and the human would have a whole spell level that the drow would not.

Anyway, play someone with a high ECL and you'll see how much of an impact it makes. (I suggest a svirfneblin or duergar, they've almost never been overplayed.)

[Blackguy]

1. There is only so much we can do since we can't play evil drow, or even CN drow since they are restriced alignments. If this was lifted, perhaps more people would feel the need to actually play evil, and not be "shun" by groups. Basicly if your playing a special race that is evil, your most likely to be playing with yourself, and that is never fun. People act nice so they can play with others. This sadly transfer to the drow. Its the same way with certain wizards that specialize in necromancy. They are automaticlly refused to play with certain characters since their is no counterpart for them to play with. That said i respect the few that sticks with it, and plays it out. But its a lonely road, and you need alot fo confidence to stick with it.
  2. Wizards dont need fewer spells, its what they do, they study around the clock to learn all they can. But i would certainly welcome a way to make specialized wizards get some sort of bonus besides have a ekstra spell per level. It wouldn't hurt. but on the other hand, i dont see many generalist around, most people have a focus in something. But I agree that wizards are generally promoted to buffbot status, and that is pretty sad. But they do it good I might add, so why change something that works. and we have a lot of wizards in the world, so its not something that really scares people from playing the class.
  3. This I agree tottaly on. The elven ear is abused, its given to so many people, that if your on a quest and there is a NPC that only speaks elven, half the party knows how to talk it. Even the deepgnome that have lived a life under ground, or the human desolated from foreign regions, knows it, simply because they have spent xx months with a elven character. And yes I also agree that people want the ears because its fun to hear what others are talking about.

[Acacea]

1. Tired of the whole drow debacle. I've complained a lot and am generally not smiled upon when I do so, but have lately thought that they just need to go as a playable race. Some players do a good job playing them, and others reacting to them.

The problem is now that people are almost justified in reacting the way they do because their only real encounters are our drow. Yeah we still have people reacting violently, but as it has been said, it gets old so fast and then you're just left with kind of walking out and trying not to run into them. You don't want to ruin anyone's RP, you don't want to make players mad OOC, yes you just want to have a good time, but you also don't want to lay the defintion of drow on the sacrificial altar and stab it to death. So you give it the token argument and ...log off. Or I do. And my character is supposed to be one of the more foolishly tolerant.

Yet more paperwork? No... frustrating, and if you're playing a good drow then you're probably doing it well. More raids? Maybe, but it doesn't stick and gets boring for the ones running it.  If they're playable they should probably be non-good, but then yes that means Az'atta doesn't get as much love. And I like her, she's a saint. Of course if you take the drow PCs out completely she doesn't get any love, but man. I just hate seeing the definition changed because of lack of actions or acknowledgement of what WOULD be NPC reactions, if possessed. Get rid of them? Probably not. Make them non-good? Dunno. Do one PC per month? No idea. Something to get more out of the system though, as right now I feel like you get a lot of cool toys without the baggage that is supposed to be a HARSH downside to playing one. PvP, maybe. Heh.

Tieflings and aasimar get a little overdone but less so; I think they could be made more special but also dislike adding more paperwork to the approval process. You would think celestials had better things to do, but apparently they are seriously lonely up there. It happens, right?

2. I was going to make a specialist too, but I think even if the spells were unchanged or made even better, most would still recommend generalist to avoid losing spells. I understand the point but am fairly ambivalent on it. What about the Aragenite wizards, of which there should be far more? If their goal is to know all, or at least as much as they can...Yes, some specialize and it makes perfect sense to do so, I just feel they are fully justified in generalizing.

3. The uncommon languages in your example are difficult to learn both in the approval process and in the game itself, no matter what your INT score is. Several of them would not be approved, and you will never receive more than five additional languages (not counting racial/class ones).

Being a tiefling or an aasimar does not and should not get you celestial, infernal, or abyssal, or even really much of an advantage in learning them. Its still hard, its still uncommon, you still better have a pretty good reason for it.

Some languages will never be approved on creation at all.

I like the language system and being able to learn them and think you would be crippling an aspect of roleplay in removing the ability to learn them. My character has lore maxed and if we had separate knowledge skills (I wish) hers would maxed language for what she has a flair for and has studied.

Frankly if an elf is friends with a ton of dwarves (I'm not saying that it makes sense, just that it's apparently a fact ingame) and they teach him dwarven and he's clever and spends a lot of time working on it, he should learn dwarven. The problem is not learning drow from the friendly dark elves, or learning dwarven from the dwarves. The problem is the relationship that allows it, is it not? Why should you be able to spend time roleplaying and developing a relationship with them and be taught for a few in game years, but never be able to understand? This makes no sense to me and seems an OOC restriction even though I know where you're coming from. I guess it just seems like a patch solution when the problem is something else.

It should be harder, but this is a roleplay thing--more elves should think about NOT teaching their beautiful language to non-elves and having it slaughtered by other races. If so many elves are willing to teach it, the problem is not that the PC is too dumb to learn, its that they shouldn't be being taught in the first place. I feel that your suggestion would fix it from the wrong side.

Learning them in game DOES take a real teacher, but they don't have to be brilliant and I don't see why Varka couldn't help. The person learning it has to be intelligent enough to understand, but Varka speaks dwarven fluently and thus can help with the learning process...but as a dwarf who is no doubt proud of his heritage and clan and suspicious of outsiders, would he WANT to help someone learn dwarven? That is closer to the right question, in my opinion.

I feel some languages are only requested "just because," yes. But I don't feel we should restrict a character's ability to learn. Rather, fewer people should be willing to teach.

[Nehetsrev]

Don't Clerics have to choose Domains of divine spells?  It'd be the same sort of restriction as the specialist mages would face.

[Gilmh]

My opinion:
 Yes
 Partly no
 Yes, yes and yes

 Starting with the drow/aasimar/tiefling

 Many characters dislike/hate the drow and roleplay it accordingly. In fact, most do, or at least those I saw. Although the character dislikes the drow, he/she has rp reasons not to atack them, including:
 - The drow appears to be stronger, so atacking would be suicide.
 - The drow is relatively near a town. If people thout he was evil/menace, he would have allready been dealt with.
 - The drow is IN a town. For a lawfull character atacking him would be agains their principles.
 - The person is open-minded. Non-human races, who might have also suffered some discrimination, want to give the drow a chance to prove himself. This is the case of one of my characters.
 - The person has seen other members of that race or an other race whose vast majority is evil being good.

 These are just a few who came to my mind. Each character probably has it's own set of reasons.

 As for the planetouched races, yes, celestials and fiends have other things to do then mixing with mortals, but consider these:
 - The outsider blood runs thru many generations. A single union between a human and an outsider will create a half-fiend/celestial. But consider that that being has two chilren, and they both have two more... We allready have 5 people with celestial blood, and we are considering only 2 children for each .
 - Celestials sometimes fall in love with mortals who show particular devotion to good. Consider a celestial who disguises himself as a mortal to search for evil in a human society, or a paladin who travels to the celestial realms in some quest. Celestials have feelings, and such as a human might mate with an elf, a celestial might mate with a human.
 - Half-Fiends are more powerfull then fiends. As such, the later may force themselves on mortals to create a weapon of war.
 
 As for angels and devils walking among us, remember that aasimars and tieflings aren't that different from humans. Tieflings may have more dificulty hiding their heritage, since they sometimes have horns or tails. However, must try to hide it, so most people do not know they are dealing with a planetouched. As for Aasimars, the color of their eyes might give it away, but again not all have a different eye color. Also, remember that this is a fantasy world and non-human races are fairly common, even in a low-magic world. And not all characters feel honoured to meet someone who is partly angel: some might have pity, others might find them disgusting, and others might hate them, do to their heritage.

 As for the xp penalties... they are really big. Especially if you do mroe adventuring the questing, you will feel its weight. My main character is an Aasimar. Although lately I was able to go to a lot more quests, I wasn't able before, and although I did a lot of adventuring, people who played +/- the same time as leveled a lot faster. Consider a human cleric and an aasimar cleric in the same ecl. The Aasimar would match the saving throws with his bonus, would have a higher DC for his spells, the turning would be +/- equal, and he would have some resistances, but would have less hp, atack and spell duration/damage. Essencially, they are balanced.

 For mages, well, I think that specialists could perhaps have some more advantages in the spell school they choose, such as having improved invisibility with the original duration, perhaps with penalties in other areas, but that they should have the option of being generalist. Aniway, my only spellcaster is still level 6 so don't know much about changed spells.

 Finally, I think languages are fine as they are as long as they are well explained in character submissions. After all, that's one of the advantages of having high int.

 Hope it helped.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Sure, some people are getting languages because they're tired of not understanding others. But then, why else should you learn a language?

Wizards... I play a generalist, not because I was squeamish about losing the spells of my prohibited school, but because it fits the character. If I wanted to play an Abjurer, I'd play one of those, and so on and so forth. The entire strength behind the Wizard class is the variety of spells they can cast. Sorcerers just get to cast a huge number of times in a day.

Subraces. I'm all for having quotas for the subraces - when's the last time you saw more than three half-orcs in a span of five minutes? You'll run into half-giants and half-ogres almost constantly. And the Drow... What's so hard to understand about the factthat your race is hated and feared? *He shrugs.* Limit the numbers, and take the best submissions.

[LoganGrimnar]

jrizz - 8/30/2006  2:27 PM

you know the mage idea is a good one. It would be the end of the "buff monkey mage" and would promote group play even more. On the other side it would greatly weaken mages in comparision to clerics, in terms of "buff monkey" status.

http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/photos/show-album.asp?albumid=194&photoid=8112

[SquareKnot]

Races: The subraces are way too common, in my opinion. Take a look at these statistics: [TABLE=head;sort=1a,2,3] Race Percentage

[Ne'er]

The first issue I agree mostly with Varka. Sadly, we can't keep drow out of a town (I mean come on, the towns been attacked before, or at least heard the rumors of attacks. Drow are known to be sneaky, so they would not be against sending in spies. Come on towns! Throw some drow out!) I do think its partially the responsibilty of the player to keep their distance from towns as a drow or other "unwelcomed" race. Just RP that they won't let you in.

My only drow character (whom I never play and had deleted) avoided going into town, and when he did he hid behind buildings, cause he was unsure of what would happen if he was found. I'm not saying all drow should be sneaky-ish, but at least try to take into account that drow are not loved. They are far from loved. They are hated. Hated with the burning passion of a thousand suns!

Which is also something that players need to remember. Sure, some characters have reasons for liking drow. Others have perfect reasons for hating them. But I think we are forgetting that the defacto attitude towards drow is one of hatred, not indifference. Much like we can all agree IC that pie is tasty, we can agree that drow are evil.

Having said all that, I am completely in favor of having perhaps a limit on the number of drow approved per month, and would prefer it small.

I end my drow rant with this:
http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/photos/show-album.asp?albumid=309&photoid=7273

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Now, as to mages: I never usually play them in NWN or computer games. Too much going on at once. I try, but I can't get into them. So can't really comment on about specialist vs. generalist mages.

Although I do agree with people when they say that the RP reasons for being a generalist can be just as good as that for a specialist.

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Languages. Yes, we want to learn them because it is a cool thing to do. I don't think anyone is going to deny that. But I think it is dumb to learn them so quickly. If you grow up learning them, its easy. However, in school we have to spend years learning a single foreign language. Now I know the American way is not what you would call the greatest method of teaching languages (we start far too late) but it seems to suit the same way adventurers learn in game.

It should take a long time, and there should be good evidence. The one case that I really remember where it seemed like someone took the time to learn a language was, well, with Acacea and her ear for elven. I remember she was speaking it to one of my elven characters very well without the ear, and even months after that she was -still- learning. I think we need more people who take ears and enjoy the RP of learning it, instead just trying to get the ear as soon as possible. Just take a few steps back and enjoy the ride.

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Almost forgot: Aasimars and Tieflings

I've always had a fondness for Tieflings. I like both as a playable race, but I also see them used far too often for class-builds and wonder how many people actually rp the traits. To be honest, I see it more with the aasimar than with the tiefling, and I usually see tieflings RP'd more appropriately. Of course, that also has something to due with the very nature of the two races so... yeah.

In the end, I wouldn't mind seeing these also made restricted, so only veterans can play them and so that only a certain number can be approved in a month.

DISCLAIMER: I am guilty of some things above (such as acting poorly towards other races that should be hated, or the language bit), but I think I've beem getting better at it lately, so hopefully people will see things a bit on the same line as I have.

[Acacea]

Ne'er - 8/30/2006  5:39 PM  Sadly, we can't keep drow out of a town (I mean come on, the towns been attacked before, or at least heard the rumors of attacks. Drow are known to be sneaky, so they would not be against sending in spies. Come on towns! Throw some drow out!)

 I think monster races should just start somewhere else. There is no reason that they should come to Hlint anymore, they are not summoned. Give them a little outcast camp somewhere, let people play them because they can be cool, but reinforce the roleplay aspect of YOU ARE NOT WELCOME right off the bat. (Heh-heh. Or start drow in the Underdark and make 'em fight their way out...no? Ah well.)   Agreed that there is some player responsibility to remember how you would be being welcomed were the NPCs real... drow chatting each other up in Spellgard and buying from the merchants just because the AI says you can, does not mean Spellgard is a drow-friendly town and people should not feel they're free to do so...   *Coughs* Getting kind of off track here, though.  Languages are a lot of fun, elven should take bloody forever--you can grasp common principles as mundane, but it should take ages before an elf goes "Oh hey, you speak pretty well." Because they'll be saying that in 34534090 words just to mean "Good job!" Acacea has a lot of fun with Yard and Rev about elven and its shades of meaning. All roleplay of course since what you type is what it spits out, but some of the definitions are too funny if you bother. Like essentially taking a dictionary-definition of a word, and using the whole phrase in place of the word every time you talk... for most words. *Snickers*

[Talan Va'lash]

Acacea - 8/30/2006  6:57 PM
... in Spellgard and buying from the merchants just because the AI says you can, does not mean Spellgard is a drow-friendly town and people should not feel they're free to do so...

That would be easy to code a fix for *snickers thinking about the drow unable to buy anything anywhere*

[Acacea]

If helmet equals no, NPC equip torch and pitchfork?

[Olme]

I do not dispute the percentages cited above on the commonality of subraces. I would also venture to guess that the percentage of  half-elven is skewed in the same manner as well.

But statistics can be misleading.

Keep in mind that, when talking of PC's we are dealing with only a very small percentage of the whole (day to day unseen) population of Layonara as a whole. The PC's represent only the 'adventuring class', thus they already a select sample of total population.

It is entirely possible, and reasonable to assume that plane-touched and others would gravitate toward this lifestyle of adventure and leadership.

Conversly, there may be a huge population of dwarven as a whole, but perhaps only a relatively few venture to leave their clans (because of strong clan ties or whatever), and choose the adventuring lifestyle.

[Harlas Ravelkione]

I am for taking out the monstrous and evil races as playable races. Most of the reasons have been mentioned and I more or less agree with Varka on this. These characters are VERY rare. If a character is born in drow, goblin or orc society he is raised by their norms, beliefs and laws and would follow them. Only a major thing would change his personality and only so many of these major things take place or it all gets strange and unrealistic. I would prefer if the playable races were limited to the normal, civilized races: Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes and Halflings

I would leave the option open for characters who have played on the server for a long time and have shown that they are mature and able to handle RPing such a race. Similar to the rules we have for playing evil characters now.

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On the spell casting suggestion I also agree that diversity would be a great thing. Additionally we play in a low magic world and therefore spellcasters should be rarer than they are now - i.e. more dificult to get approved, such as what happened to druids and priests. What I see right now are casters with identical spellbooks - almost without exception.

In NWN2 we will see new spells I am assuming and the spells will start out without having been balanced for Layo. Before we consider balancing them or nerfing those that may be abused to harvest CNR or kill overpowering oponents we might consider making restrictions to the spell schools available.
In a low magic world the number of spell casters would be lower than it is now. Therefore teachers are hard to find and their areas of expertise is further limited. Therefore I propose that mages and sorcerors limit their range of spells to half the number of schools. In RP terms that simply means that they were not able to find teachers for the remaining schools of magic. This would create very different caster characters and show us a broader range of spells used in game. I know that evocation will be the school that is chosen by most, but still there will be far more differences and variety than we currently have in the world.

Again there is the option of undertaking a CDQ or similar quest to find a teacher in a school one does not have, thereby allowing one to learn spells from that school on successfull completion of the quest.


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On the languages. Well, they should be rarer than they are today. Personally I would limit them to one additional language that may be learned in game, and also limit character applications to 2 languages for a new character.

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The above ideas reflect my personal opinion and are a few ideas among many that I have and would love to see implemented. The caster option requires discipline by the players, but I believe that this might lead to interesting characters.

Harlas

[Ar7]

1) Monster races

I used to RP hatred towards all monster races and tried to drive them out of town. I was successful at first but as the world grew and more and more players came I faced very weird situations. Unfortunately many people began metagaming here and I just dropped the entire thing, it just became a useless waste of time that just wasn't fun. The example of the situation, very much simplified, just to give the basic idea.

Rufus: Get out of town!

Drow: But I am a good drow...

Rufus: You don't belong here, just wait until the militia arrives

Drow Metagame Nr 1: I am not afraid of the law, the people of Hlint have nothing against me (nothing against a drow?!?!)

Rufus: Alright, then I will personally remove you from this town

Drow Metagame Nr 1: I am not afraid of a little wizard and your magic

Rufus: *summons something big and nasty*

Drow: *laughs*

So this was a rough example, conclusion? It becomes really old really fast when I am not able to do anything and just face a blank wall. In reality Rufus would have executed that drow or goblin or giant or whatever on sight, if he didn't have a good reason to be there aaaaand would so arrogantly mouth off.

So yes, I agree with drastically limiting the special races!

2) Mages and specilizations

Mages used to differ at the start of Layo. One could clearly see who was an evoker or enchanter or necromancer, because they used mostly the spells from their school. You couldn't ever see an enchanter casting a fireball or an evoker using a finger of death. These days it is just silly. Everybody hates a necromancer because he names himself like that, but nobody hates a generalist wizard who runs around casting Wails and Finger of Deaths....right...logical hmm?

Honestly I don't know what to do about this, people used to have common sense and did not take Meteor Storm if it was an enchanter or Weird if the person wasn't an illusionist. It's gone now and I doubt it could be brought back *shrugs* I guess we will have to live with this until NWN2. For me, spellcasting in general has been bad and broken for a long time.

[Ar7]

Harlas Ravelkione - 8/31/2006  7:58 AM

What I see right now are casters with identical spellbooks - almost without exception.

That's because quite a few spells have been "balanced" For example a person who began as an evoker will soon realize that most of his spells are useless in a party and will begin searching for other alternatives.