Question on luring monster

[Ioskeha]

Has the rules changed for luring?  The last few weeks I've heard of a lot of people using this tactic to take down spawns that are much harder then what their PCs can normally handle.

[KageKeeper]

As far as I know that is and always will be a big no no.

I believe it falls under "Abusing AI" in the rules.

If a GM were to see this...things could be interesting.

~KK

[Lilswanwillow]

I've been seeing it alot too, even on quests.

but, I guess a better question would be: what exactly IS luring?  you see a bunch of ogres, and drag one or two out to get mutilated? right?

[KageKeeper]

As far as I know, that is correct.

It is using the AI against itself. Slowly approaching so one sees you and follows you instead of the entire horde.

In reality, if one creature saw you, it would alert all of the others most likely.

~KK

[Desicardo]

I think what you are refering to is just smart tactics.. catching the attention of one enemy and drawing into an ambush is not illegal, rather smart battle tactics.  The luring that is refered to is to engage a single or group of enemies, then run and draw them to an NPC for them to assist in killing them.  For instance attacking a giant outside prantz then running to the guards outside the city gate to help kill it is against server rules.  It uses the AI of NPC's to kill things rather than facing them in fair combat.  Using smart tactics against a group of foes however is quite allowed and often necessary even in a well balanced party.

[Blackguy]

I agree with this. Charging into 20 Epic Rogues is not a smart move, no matter who you are. Being able to lure half a grooup of mobs away first and deal with them, rather than having an enitre spawn, which at high levles can be much more nasty than Ogres in Haven ( yes its possible ). See thats just plain smart.

[Dorganath]

Unfortunately, due to game mechanics, there's a very fine line between "smart tactics" and "abuse of AI".
  Picking one creature at a time out of a group because of perception limits is borderline abusive at best. Bringing the whole spawn into an ambush can be considered smart tactics. Getting creatures trapped by geographic features is abuse of AI. I think you can see a pattern emerging.  
  The best gauge here is common sense. Or perhaps a simple question: Does this feel wrong or like cheating?
  If the answer there is "yes" then you probably should not be doing it.
  I know this is a little vague but to get specific will open this discussion up to a bunch of "what if" scenarios.
  However, let me state clearly that it is never acceptible to drag monsters back to friendly NPCs in hopes that they'll take care of the monsters for you.

[Gunther]

Gunther spends some time in the swamp of reawakening, fighting the swamp zombies (or whatever those things are).  I've found that if I fight more than three at a time, they tend to run all around and through Gunther's avatar and through each other, until I get the message that whatever Gunther's target is, is not within reach.  And Gunther then just stops attacking and stands there like an imbecile.  All the while, they seem to be able to keep hitting Gunther.  As these guys hit for some nasty damage, it doesnt take much to obliterate hit points and bring a character down, especially if your character just stops fighting (even for only a couple seconds).

As such, I will readily admit that I try to lure two or three to Gunther for a fight that doesnt involve Gunther just stopping and standing there.  A lot of the times, I still lure all four of them, which makes it real dicey on whether or not the above will happen or not.

I hate doing it.  I'm happiest when I fight all four of the spawns (without the above happening) and manage to survive and beat them, as they're tough opponents for Gunther and its a real close thing sometimes (which is the best part of the fights to me).

Do I feel its wrong to lure two or three of them?  Yes, I do.  But its a bit of a quandry, as it also isnt right for Gunther to just stop fighting in the middle of a fight and stand there getting a beat down.

If somebody would like to weigh in and give an opinion on whether this is abuse or not, I'd appreciate it.  If it is, then I'll find some other swamp for Gunther to go and play in.

[Drizzlin]

I play this "fine" line that some are refering to at times, and I never feel like I'm cheating or "luring". The map/zone is small, but in reality it is suppose to be a huge cave, or huge city (Prantz for example). When you walk into a room, everything spawns in a central location and walks around, This is the AI and the game mechanics. In truth, we should wait until the creatures roam about, like they would be in a normal situation, and then start picking them off. Would they call for others? Sure they would, but thier allys would have to run all the way across the dark caves or town to be able to help. The zone may be small to scale, but they are suppose to be huge. An ogre may not hear his body fighting or calling for help if he is across the cave (which could be a thousand feet away). I take all of this into consideration and I do not feel dirty, or like i'm abusing AI.

It was once even brought up that AoE casting on a group of mobs, at the spawn point was cheating/abusing AI. The reason being is that the mobs spawn in one location and it was abusing AI. So why would charging them all at one time be any different? I rather like, and think it is more realistic to fight a few at a time, and then the other creatures in the room roam into range of the fight and join in.

I of course NEVER use AI to trap or abuse a creature so it can not fight back. That is just common sense.

[Rayenoir]

If the AI were more than "aha, I see you, charge and attack," then it wouldn't be abusive to use terrain to one's advantage.  Certainly, if it were a real situation, then they could call their allies to attention.  However, were it a real situation, they may show more creative counter-strategy than "aha, I see you, charge and attack" all the way from the simpleton ogres to something as brilliant as a drow archmage (okay, so in that situation, it's "aha, I see you, cast spells until you kill me").
All I'm trying to say here is that we work with what we've got.  This wouldn't be an issue if Bioware hadn't failed so fundamentally in creating AI for their creatures.

[jrizz]

Dorganath - 12/9/2006  7:03 PM



Getting creatures trapped by geographic features is abuse of AI.

I am not sure I agree with this. Fighting a giant or group of giants or any bad guys in an area that is too small for them to flank or suround you is good tactics. You choose the terrain for battle (art or war)

[Boxcar]

jrizz - 12/9/2006  7:11 PM

Dorganath - 12/9/2006  7:03 PM



Getting creatures trapped by geographic features is abuse of AI.

I am not sure I agree with this. Fighting a giant or group of giants or any bad guys in an area that is too small for them to flank or suround you is good tactics. You choose the terrain for battle (art or war)

I don't think you and Dorganath are talking about the same thing. There are places where creatures can get trapped by their environment where they shouldn't; e.g., in the forests of Mists, giants can get stuck behind the tents when they come after you. If they do, and you just stand back and pick them off from a distance, then that's an abuse of the game AI.

Fighting a group of giants on a bridge, for example (where only two or three might be able to get to you at a time) is acceptable, I believe.

[Ioskeha]

Okay.. so lets say a level 7 or so PC goes into the Battle Fens and lures one troll there at a time.  That would be considered smart battle tactics?

[Dorganath]

Boxcar - 12/9/2006  11:27 PM  

jrizz - 12/9/2006  7:11 PM  

Dorganath - 12/9/2006  7:03 PM    Getting creatures trapped by geographic features is abuse of AI.

 I am not sure I agree with this. Fighting a giant or group of giants or any bad guys in an area that is too small for them to flank or suround you is good tactics. You choose the terrain for battle (art or war)

I don't think you and Dorganath are talking about the same thing. There are places where creatures can get trapped by their environment where they shouldn't; e.g., in the forests of Mists, giants can get stuck behind the tents when they come after you. If they do, and you just stand back and pick them off from a distance, then that's an abuse of the game AI.      Fighting a group of giants on a bridge, for example (where only two or three might be able to get to you at a time) is acceptable, I believe.

 Correct Boxcar. I am talking about "trapped"...like by a ridge or other geographic feature that prevents advancement or short-circuits the pathfinding AI. A choke point (i.e. a bridge) is something entirely different.

[Dorganath]

Ioskeha - 12/9/2006  11:32 PM  Okay.. so lets say a level 7 or so PC goes into the Battle Fens and lures one troll there at a time.  That would be considered smart battle tactics?

 There's no single answer to that question.
  If said troll wandered far away from the group, then sure...pick him off. If by exploiting the perception range of NPCs only a single troll out of a group came running at that character then that is abusive and should not be done.
  Again, a little common sense goes a long way.

[Desicardo]

I totally agree with jrizz, smart combat consists of using the terrain to protect your flank and rear, using archers and mages to target enemy mages to prevent them from casting, biting off small digestable pieces of larger groups, etc, etc.  Otherwise what you are left with is drunken dwarf tactics where everyone runs in and has a slug fest, the most hit points wins.  That is not r/p of combat, that is hack and slash and against what I feel is the spirit of the server.  Half the fun of going into combat is the planning phase where tactics are decided and tasks assigned.  To say that you have to engage a whole spawn at once would take the whole idea of a balanced party and throw it out the window.  I agree it is a fine line between abusing the AI and smart play, but I would have to think that the AI was created as it was for a reason, that being to make tactical smart combat more of a factor than how fast a person can hit the mouse button to bash a target.  Monsters were made to roam for a reason, otherwise they would just stand in a group back to back and wait for a party strong enough to come kill them.  I for one would hate to have to deal with a group of giants in a tortise or phalanx formation, giving you no option but to engage the whole thing at once.  Level requirements to engage spawns would go way way up and light armored high dex PC's would be about obsolete as even a high dex character can only parry or dodge so many blows a round.  That said, if you are in an area and you can only survive picking off single stragglers, or it takes so long to take down a spawn that the next spawn comes up before you can clean up and exit, you are probably doing something you shouldn't be doing.  Common sense has to rule when it comes to guaging where you should or shouldn't be.  If you are in serious risk of falling to a couple bad guys when you enter a spawn area you should probably be someplace else.  My rule of thumb is if I HAVE to lure the baddies out one at a time to survive an encounter, it is probably over my head and I need to get help or find another place to be.

[KageKeeper]

My rule of thumb is if I HAVE to lure the baddies out one at a time to survive an encounter, it is probably over my head and I need to get help or find another place to be.

That, I think, is an excellent rule of thumb to have.

[ItalianDDog]

@Ioskeha.     I know say 'PC' you are referring to is me.  Because I mentioned it.  I did not say that I venture there and do it often for XP. I can count 2 times that I have been around that swamp area.  Each time I was passing through to explore.  Slipping around the sides. I tried to gather a party together to go there and you said it was too hard. And then you know what I said so I wont type it all out.  I didnt go there with the intent of cheating the AI and killing the whole field.  I was slipping around the corner of the map as every1 does when they dont want to spawn any encounter. Trying to be sneaky in a RP sense. Doing this there are some points that you can not slip by because the trolls wander to the edges of the map.  If there is a group of four.  and they are randomly walking back and forth towards the edge. I see no problem in "sneakingly" standing in one spot until say 1 or 2 run over to me so I can clear a path to continue the 'sneaking' through the area. Like Dorganath said...  Common sense goes a long way.  Personally dont need you to come on the forums for a question about me that could be easily answered. I appreciate that you did not mention my said PC name. But if you asked me a bit more information before hand this post would never have been required.

Once again in a RP sense if I was sneaking around the corners of the map I see no problem common sense wise with picking 1 or two off.

IF I were to take out the whole map for the purpose of XP then there is a problem.  

I simply said to you that I have 'lured' one or two out of a group and they were no problem.. hence there were 5 of us that I wanted to go.. so being a group of 4 or 5 trolls shouldnt have been a problem being you were all my level. The trolls are not that much off for a lvl 6 7 and 8 with a good group.

Have a good night and enjoy your Layo time

[lonnarin]

I'd say it is abusing AI game mechanics, but not any more unfair than low CR casting monsters with unlimited spells above and beyond an epic wizard PC, or spawnpoints of large, unsneaky monsters who show up out of nowhere on top of your party with no opportunity to spot or listen check them.

[Ioskeha]

That's what strikes me as a bit odd, ItalianDDog.  I've gone to the Battle Fens with my higher level PC with group twice as large as the one we were in.  Were the other PCs were all level 14+.  Those Trolls are not as easy to take down as you make them out to be.

And, no I did not use you as an example.  I used a scenario similar to what your PC said in-game.  I didn't know for a fact that you were really luring Trolls one at a time.  And when I asked you about it in a tell you didn't reply.  I could have easily used any of the other ten I've seen in the past few weeks since I came back to Layo.  One time I was out in the woods sneaking around with my Druid when I saw someone lure 1 Treant away from the spawn, kill it, and do it again until each Treant was killed.  When I asked the person about it he told me that luring was common on Layo.  That a lot of people do it.  This has been a question I wanted to ask since I heard this.  You just reminded me to ask.