Racial issues Rp

[Varka]

After a small review of the post development I will just make some small notes here.

A) Summarize
1.   It is about us the players (behind the screen) – do we play well the “racial issues”?
2.   Can we make it better?
3.   Should we try to aim higher or accept the level we are on now?
4.   In involves all races and especially sub races.
5.   Sub races should not be picked to be played not because of the “physical advantages”.
6.   They should be played because of the rp behind them explained in LORE. With some variation of course. (I mentioned that as a disadvantage before – but it depends on who you speak with)
7.   It is not only about drow.

The link you refer to Weeblie - it looks at the drow situation more than “general issuses”. Writers focuses mostly on drow. What is the problem, how can it be solve, tools, ideas, debate and so on.
And I will thank Allorian, Eight-bit and especially Etinfall for the posts on the former thread.

This post is similar to the other one but…
It is directed at the players behind the computer playing Layonara.
8.   Do we play the “racial issues” well?
9.   Do we play general issues for sub races well? (Yes I change it a bit now)
10.   Can we make it better?
11.   Do we need to make it better?
12.   How to make it better?

B) General issues. (Yes I change it a bit now)
As Etinfall I will quote a bit from LORE:  
Gray Elves are much more arrogant and aloof than other elven races. They regard every other race with disdain, even other elven races. They only have respect for other Gray Elves. Most Gray Elves are full of themselves, and usually only listen to themselves or other Gray Elves.
Deep Gnomes are distrustful, and treat every stranger as possible enemy. However, once they’ve given their trust, they’re loyal allies. They are not a passionate people unless it comes to gems and jewelry.
Tiefling: Due to their fiendish heritage, tieflings are a sinister and cunning people, often drawn to the path of a rogue and mercenary work. The majority of tieflings have an evil alignment and do not get along well with most other people.

When choosing a sub race along follow most likely “general issues” and not just hatred. By declining to play by these rules (with variation of course) and only accepting the advantage. Players in my eyes are at some point (not giving any value here as it is not static) metagaming.


C) Comments to others:
Falonthas and Stephen:
I did mention the “Dragon called” as it is merely used as an excuse by players “maybe” to avoid conflict. If there at some point will not be any “Dragon called” then other excuses will be used. That is why I brought it up.

D) Introduction
Debates are good, but I like to see tools, solution and ideas how to come around the problem that race cultures, issues, habits etc.
Yes, I have seen Leathars post about V3 and I am sure what I will suggest here will never be used or put on the list. Though I will share my idea anyway.

A-idea-that-for-sure-everyone-will-disagree-with-me
Now let me take out my Smith&Wesson here and empty a clip in my foot and break of this post
I should have used more time on the following part but it is late here.
The last part should be seen more like raising new questions/thoughts.

If the following was possible I will make a quick remark here that it should ONLY be done to future submissions and not to already accepted character submissions. Why? That’s a long explanation which I am not capable of giving or explaining the right way:

E) Assumption
I assume character submission here a done “with the good spirit of RP”. That would mean advantages like stats, resistance; special abilities would not have any influence for a character submission; as the player’s wishes to play a race due to RP which follows with the chosen race.

F) Idea & Solution
So why not make the system simpler?
Assume a player picks wants to play a sunelf.
By submission the player picks elf and gets only the common stats, resistance etc.
Only by choosing right skin color and getting a “label” by the GM saying you are a sunelf – you are becoming a sunelf.
I am most sure that 99,9% of you at thinks “WHAT!”.. maybe already upset and will not listen to me any more… so I am going for that 0,1% now.


G) Rules, Subjective opinion and answers:
According to rules, D&D and God who knows what I am sure there will be arguments after arguments about why a Sunelf is a smarter being and should have more INT – living closer to the sun, being close to God etc. etc.

My answer in advance would be something like:
“The only thing I see here are people which makes arguments by referring to the rule book why Sunelf should have more INT; but in the end it all refers to stats/resistance etc.
I would say, if you want a smart sunelf give him some INT.

And how can I say that?
 It is because you see the combos again and again:
Sunelf/mage, tiefling/rouge, Giant/fighter etc.


Would sub races be removed then why should someone pick a sunelf for character submission?
It only has stats as and elf?
Why pick a drow if it does not have spell resistance but only disadvantages running around in Hlint?

The answer is simple: Because of RP.


The variation of races and sub races are fun I agree, but only as long that is makes difference IC.
Though if you make the game simple the only thing that would make your character special would be:

Answer: RP


H)  Argumentation against myself:
If you take away sub races how far are you willingly to go?
I would keep the common race dividing stats to have some difference but not more.

Why is that?
Subjective: Because I believe there should be a difference though the balance should be placed else where. By race.
*Empties the last of the clip*


I) Reference
I have tried to play a bit with systems before Layonara but it was really really simple systems and mostly system-less games.

What happens when difference (and here I mean stats etc) between character becomes really really small is that the only thing you can hold on to is RP.
“Boring” is a thought most you would think (an assumption) but I would more assume that this would make you - as a player more RP active to become special

J) Ending
I am sure this will never happen on Layonara though I could wish for it.  


K) NWN based on skills:  
A friend of mine has worked with the NWN system for a few years. And he made his own system which is more “skill based”.
Would the Team be interested to see some of his work, hear his thoughts and opinion then you are welcome.  
He checks Layos webpage now and then.
(He did some work on “the orc ring” for Harlas in the “Hunt quest”.)
 

PS:
- For the moment The Team blocks sub race submissions.
- Players want it open again.
- Maybe by making the stats of elves general (and the same counts for other races) maybe the Team would open it again?
- That would still not balance out the races problem now, but looking at practical terms I would estimate less would submit sub races due to the loos of “physical advantages” and the gain of only “disadvantage” (RP).  

[Varka]

//PPS:  The Team should make a group which could help others (like me) writing posts

[Weeblie]

The link was indeed about the drow, but most of the comments can be generalised to all the "racial dislike".

[Eight-Bit]

Here's the official 8bit view on racial RP:

If your character has a reason to be racist, be racist. If your character does not, do not. It comes down to the individual players to RP how they want, and no matter how many guidelines we give ourselves it will still come down to what's important to the player behind the character.

Nobody wants to make anybody feel left out. Most people who are playing a strange or unusual subrace don't want to be left out either. I find it unusual that it is easier to poke at a certain grumpy female Illusionist than it is a dark and possibly evil drow. But that comes down to the content of our character, and not the color of our character's skin. A pretty wise man said something along those lines.

The best way to get this to work in game is for the high level players, espically WLs, to begin picking up on this. Everyone knows this is a game, and if they are offended, we have ways to sort that out here. A tell goes a long way, and I personally feel that enemies are more fun to RP with than friends.

[Chnmmr]

When drow are treated like elves, drow then become dark coloured elves with better abilities.  Elves hate drow and it should show, Tieflings should be distrusted on sight unless proven to be a genuinely decent person.  Aasimars are often given the benefit of the doubt as they -look- to be good people.

Simply thats my view, if you want to play an unusual race, you need to accept the disadvantages with it.  Fair enough this is an rp server and people want to have fun.  If you don't want to be victimised and instead want to be loved by all... don't be a Drow.

[Drizzlin]

Weeblie - 11/23/2006  8:36 AM

The link was indeed about the drow, but most of the comments can be generalised to all the "racial dislike".

What Weeblie said...

The reason that post seemed Drow heavy, is that Drow are the the most hated and misstrusted race, which they deserve as a whole. As far as the other sub races go, there are few that are hated by all like the drow. Most simply hate a certain race for certain reasons. Of course Orcs and Goblins come to mind as being hated by all, but not like drow. I know that half-giants were discussed, but if you read their descriptions, they are accepted by humans and giants. Sure they may be treated like freaks by some, but they are accepted.

[Witch Hunter]

UP'chee!


I'm bringing this back in light of recent events...
Mainly because I'm shocked by the amount of (prepare yourselfs to be amazed) Drows.
Okay, some are great roleplayers and good people - but still, when my elf enters town and suddenly someone mentions the word drow and three hooded people go "Yeah I'm drow! I'm drow!" I'm rather shocked.

People seem to forget that beyond us players the world is populated by normal folk (and not just the one or two NPCs we get to see, we should assume there are much more... when I go to port Hampshire it's only visually empty, technically I see it as a hub of activity - just an example)
And how would a common person, say a human farmer, that suddenly sees a drow (especially now in the darkages) react? He was grown up being taught that Drows are nasty people that sacrafice human babes and so forth... and suddenly 3 people who he was passing by earlier announce themselves such!

And that's just from a NPC prespective,  my elf was also rather shocked and was quick to draw swords (of course, what would you expect?... ive had a few tells saying "they are much higher level than you, quit it"... what the hell??)
Suddenly you have a Toranite saying "Bla bla bla! these are good drows and you shall not harm them!" or some other thing, and a bunch of people will jump to their defence and finally the elf feels this town is mad and leaves... It's all nice and good.

But theres a limit, Drow are meant to be below ground - on the rare occasion we see them above ground it's ussualy a raid... renegade drows should be by FAR more secretive about their nature :/ and people (especially darn Toranites) should be FAAAAAAAAAR less protective of them because theres also an angry mob of farmers holding tourches and pitch forks at them


This also goes for any other "evil race"

opinions, anyone?


EDIT: Prepare for cheese!
Even Drizzt, although a hero of Icewind Dale, was never fully accepted by all... and needless to say beyond Icewind Dale (so your Drow might be a hero in Hlint... but the world is so much bigger, and againts all odds word doesn't travel that fast ya'know )

[darkstorme]

There IS a reason Kell wears a hood all the time.  

[jrizz]

Pseudonym - 11/21/2006  7:48 PM


But Vyris, if you take away the endless rehashing of old threads what am I going to do at work? (Other than work that is)

*goes off to contemplate starting a thread complaining about meta-gamers and power-levellers . . . or maybe one thanking the GM team . . . maybe a count to some arbitrary number . . . *

*falls down laughing*

[Nehetsrev]

Well, maybe I misunderstand what being a Toranite means, but I thought it meant upholding justice and law.  So, in my interpretation that would mean that said Toranite(s) who know said renegade Drow has done no wrong would be perfectly in their rights to stand against the Elf in the example, and even the 'mob-mentality' of the local NPC's.  Further, even if said Toranite doesn't know whether the Drow is good or bad, upholding law and justice equally would at least require said Toranite to stand against outright violence against said Drow (or any other race) individual until such time as they could be properly and fairly tried and found either innocent or guilty.

Granted, said Toranite(s) may not exactly always be very happy about their lawful duty, especially if they have had past bad experience overshadowing their personal judgement of a given race, in which case exceptions can and possibly should be made, dependent on the individuals own degree of religious zeal, convictions, and the specifics of the situation.

If Toran has made one set of laws for some races, and another set of laws for other races (aka - segregation/race laws) then perhaps I could see your point that Toranites specificly should not be sticking up for Drow who have not yet been proven guilty or innocent of any law-breaking.  As far as I know, however, Toran's law applies rather equally to all, save those heathens who worship the gods who are Toran's own enemies.

[Witch Hunter]

Following your idea of a Toranite then.. he should let a drow war party in town as long as they don't attack anyone?
There's bliss in ignorance, and that leads to deaths. if he lets them in town just because they didn't do anything wrong he will be lowering his guard and letting them attack from within.


Drows are a backstabbing race, everyone knows that - I believe people grant them trust WAY too fast.



It's just like saying "Hey that Balor hasn't killed anyone... yet, let's be his friends"

[Polak76]

Once again I agree with WitchHunter here.
I think occasionally its good to remind people of the racial hatreds.  What we really need is the drow to attack Hlint a few more times like the good ole' days.  That should reignite some fury.

[Witch Hunter]

Yep, give those mothers a reason to lock up their children

[Nehetsrev]

Witch Hunter - 2/7/2007  5:48 PM

Following your idea of a Toranite then.. he should let a drow war party in town as long as they don't attack anyone?
There's bliss in ignorance, and that leads to deaths. if he lets them in town just because they didn't do anything wrong he will be lowering his guard and letting them attack from within.


Drows are a backstabbing race, everyone knows that - I believe people grant them trust WAY too fast.



It's just like saying "Hey that Balor hasn't killed anyone... yet, let's be his friends"

Firstly, A Drow warparty isn't likely to walk in peacefully through the front gates of any town.  It is the job to the town guard (NPC's) to restrict movement of any such threats into the town.  Therefore a Toranite could assume a Drow already within the town had been cleared by local authority to be there.  Further, there are other circumstances that could be involved, and justice seeks facts -before- judgement.  That doesn't nescessarilly mean that anyone's guard is let down, it merely means the opportunity is given for said Drow to prove themselves unworthy of such suspicion before unlawful action is taken against them.  In the case of afforementioned Drow war-party, if they came under banner of peace, it is possible (though very unlikely) that they would be allowed into the town under special circumstance such as dissarmament and under armed guard, just in case, but again these sorts of things would be handled by local authorities who may or may not call upon any given Toranite pressent to lend support in the lawful handling of such parties.

What I'm saying ultimately boils down to this, A Toranite may well be suspiscious, but doesn't let said suspicions dictate whether the law is fairly or unfarily applied to each individual on basis of race or gender, though if certain religious affiliation is known or can be proven an individual linked to a god who is one of Toran's enemies is not considered under protection of Toran's law.

[Lilswanwillow]

you know, I'm trying.. hard.. to RP hatred.

but every time I do, I have 10 people jumping on me telling me that I need to accept them.  some say that they have also helped stop the attacks on Hlint

I am very frustrated

[Witch Hunter]

The NPC guards should react hostile to a new Drow in town, but they don't - because they're computer controlled, if the local guard was actually people I'm sure the reactions towards a new drow would be VERY hostile.
Drows are a tricky race, sending a spy to infintrate the city is something possible by them.

If we're talking about good Drow who want an opportunity - lets look at the cheesiest, and first case of them all: Drizzt.
The father of Drow PC's never had that chance, he proved himself without marching into a town on his first day on the surface did he?  but it's an example I hate to give as everyone dislikes Drizzt in reality
Regardless, a good drow is 1 in a million (although we have quite a few) and I see no reaosn to trust any drow that enters town.

Let me sum up what I have to say: a Toranite shouldn't be suspiscious, he should be hostile - he should think about all the children that might die incase his judgement proves wrong, and everyone knows a good drow is as rare as...well, a good drow.


Taken from the race page of the drow:
"they are feared and hated by all the races of Layonara. They are masters of magic and treachery, trusted by none, not even each other."

Lilswanwillow - 2/7/2007  4:26 PM
you know, I'm trying.. hard.. to RP hatred.
but every time I do, I have 10 people jumping on me telling me that I need to accept them.  some say that they have also helped stop the attacks on Hlint
I am very frustrated

EXACTLY the point im trying to make.

[Tanman]

I think they did Polak, but people still didn;t get it.

A week later they were back to normal again.

What is needed is an example from the top down. People neeed to see the WL setting an example. People need to see the experienced players expressing hatred.

V3 is going to be a lot better at this too. http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=30619&start=1&highlight=Layonara+future&highlightmode=1

pay paryticular attention to:

15) When the first phase of V3 rolls out the following races must start out as CN, TN, NE, or LE: Dark Elf, Half-Orc, Half-Giant, Half-Ogre, Orc, Goblin, and Duergar.
    a)  These races will start in their own location that is separate from the other races.
    b)  Hlint will no longer be the starting location and we will have two starting locations, by race & alignment one for the races and alignments listed above and the other location for all other races and alignments.
    c)  However both starting locations will be somewhat close to each other in order to allow the community interaction.
    d)  The only Dark Elves that will be allowed to start off as good-aligned are Clerics of Az’atta and this character will likely be able to choose their starting location. We might allow that in more cases, time will tell as this is not yet implemented.

EDIT:
i totally agree with you Witch Hunter. 100% with the point you are making about Drow

[lonnarin]

I think you guys have been doing a pretty good job so far.  Most of Kor's friends are people he dragged to the arena after threatening him in town, and he and dwarves rightly hate eachother with a passion.  I quit playing Rakish long ago because drow were too accepted in V.2...  He even wore a skull mask and a pirate suit and people would just wave and say hello and recruit him for work.  I went through all the trouble of making about 4 different fill-body disguises and aliases just to find people trusted the skull headed drow more.  As such, my interest in him kind of tapered off, though he has too much sentimental value to delete, being one of my first characters here ever.

Kor pretty much doesn't group with anybody unless they're some form of outcast freak or cultist, like Alice, Hector, Czukay, Ptol, etc... and that's the way it should be.  I don't think I've been in a single group with him and an elf, and I KNOW he and dwarves do little more than exhange insults and curse eachother in their own tongues, angrily.  Other than decadent humans, only halflings really have an open enough mind to be his ally (except Triba, who rightly threatens him) and most gnomes either run away or watch Kor with such skittish worry Grand himself could savor the fear.

It's strange though how cunning, slaving, magic adept and connving drow though aren't feared more than orcs from north of Hlint.  I mean, you'd think the verminslayer from the layo-sp campaign  would have come looking for Darilith by now with his robes of spidery doom.

I think it's the perma-loincloth from the orc skin.

Farros is an odd case as a tiefling who looks perfectly human.  It usually takes people several hours of adventuring to catch on to his obsession with curses and bleak, dismal sense of humor... but even then most just think he's just a crazy human who's had way too much to drink.  Of course he's a high-charisma bard, so I try to have him hide his true nature better than most tiefers are able to, given their fangs, tails, accents and weird skin.

Maybe I'll make a more obviously freaky and tainted one once the V3 changes come about...

[Nehetsrev]

Witch Hunter - 2/7/2007  6:29 PM

The NPC guards should react hostile to a new Drow in town, but they don't - because they're computer controlled, if the local guard was actually people I'm sure the reactions towards a new drow would be VERY hostile.
Drows are a tricky race, sending a spy to infintrate the city is something possible by them.

If we're talking about good Drow who want an opportunity - lets look at the cheesiest, and first case of them all: Drizzt.
The father of Drow PC's never had that chance, he proved himself without marching into a town on his first day on the surface did he?  but it's an example I hate to give as everyone dislikes Drizzt in reality
Regardless, a good drow is 1 in a million (although we have quite a few) and I see no reaosn to trust any drow that enters town.

Let me sum up what I have to say: a Toranite shouldn't be suspiscious, he should be hostile - he should think about all the children that might die incase his judgement proves wrong, and everyone knows a good drow is as rare as...well, a good drow.


Taken from the race page of the drow:
"they are feared and hated by all the races of Layonara. They are masters of magic and treachery, trusted by none, not even each other."

Lilswanwillow - 2/7/2007  4:26 PM
you know, I'm trying.. hard.. to RP hatred.
but every time I do, I have 10 people jumping on me telling me that I need to accept them.  some say that they have also helped stop the attacks on Hlint
I am very frustrated

EXACTLY the point im trying to make.

And again you're missing my point about the way a devout Toranite should be played.  Your argument again also only points out reasons why Drow should be distrusted.  My point is simple, a devout Toranite will not -trust- a Drow at first, but also he or she will not join the mob mentailty and seek to kill all Drow on first sight as that would be contradictory to the teachings of Toran regarding justice.  You can extend a measure of latitude for someone, and even stick up for their rights under the law even if you yourself do not trust them.  You're trusting in the 'higher-power' of the law and your god to function as it should and protect everyone, including an individual you do not trust, but who -may possibly be innocent- and therefore -must- be protected under the law you follow and believe in until guilt is fairly and undisputeably determined.

[Lilswanwillow]

it be great if this only was a certain group of people-toranites...

but its everyone.