Balancing suggestion

[jan]

Thought about this a long time and don't have a clou if it even is possible, but here goes*takes a deep breath*:

Would it be possible to change the monster spawns in ways they don't get impossible for fighter chars to pass?

I know this world isn't meant to be soloing and i ( when i joined) accepted that it is a low-magic world.

Over the time i found that it is a low-magic world with the drops,but there it stops.

Every-one that looks to to the server status from time to time can clearly see that the part off the world with the high end drops(east) is populated by :wiz/sorc/cleric and in some degree paladins and rogues that by means off spells and summons can survive there it seems.

Of course i am biased since i play a fighter type, but i'm sure i'm not the only one that thinks that in a low magic world "" spell-users"shouldn't be as powerful as they are here.

A while back there was a reply to a similar post i made ( think it was by Ice) that the spawns on east might get a "summon-killing thingy"
This would help of course, but in my opinion the problem is spreading .
Basing this on recent experience:

Giants all have the use off healing-potions and spells found at some shamans or witchdoctors take away the little aiding magic a non-spell user can put on him/herself.

Most monsters hit as fast as i do with my char( 5 times in two rounds) or more.

I'm not sure if this is a result off changing the spawns or simply the result off me having bad luck all the time,but it nearly gets impossible to go to places i used to go to,to get cnr's for my guild.

My suggestion is simple but i'm not sure if it can be done.

Instead off changing the dam/hit points/armor/speed monsters have, would it be possible to simply give them magic-resistance ?

With a specialised fighter that isn't really under-geared( not even sure if that's a word  ) it gets harder and harder to live up to the things i was used to do for my guild and i fear that before long it will be the result that i simply cant get any cnr's for my guild while i'm on alone.

I can understand that monsters can use potions and that the shamans/witchdoctors learn new spells, but to me it seems weird i find a potion off healing( mostly cure crit wounds or lower) on 1 in about 80 creatures while,if my char turns for a attack of opportunity, almost half the giants i meet on Dregar use that time to swallow a potion when badly wounded/near dead.

Again, i know this world isn't created to solo , but to me it seems weird that a lvll 21 specialised fighter cant go around Dregar ( central) alone when a lvll 14-17 cleric or paladin seems to be able to do that.( not even trying to figure out what lvll sorc/ wiz cn do it alone since i think they can even solo it earlier but are not sure)

I am very interested in the opinions off the team on this and i hope i haven't stepped on too many toes *grins*

Jan A.K.A. Barion

[jan]

**bump**

Bumping this because i realy am interested in the answers, depending on them i will decide if my fighter char will have to take up another class , like many others already did, to be able to survive when i'm on at times that i'm nearly alone and the rest off the chars around are too low for me to travel with.

Jan A.K.A. Barion

[Serissa]

The point of not traveling with lower levels is not to give them a free ride.  If you really need the skills they have, wouldn't that be another matter entirely?  Just curious, like you.

[Weeblie]

Traveling with lower level characters with a high level one should generally be avoided because of the fact that they would be able to get items/gold/XP (not necessary the last if they are far, far to the left on the XP curve) that they otherwise would never have the opportunity to.

There are the hard rules with the level requirements for each server, and there are the soft rules which basicly translated into common sense. No matter how much one justifies to bring a level 10 character to UD (necessary as cleric... etc...), it's still wrong. Same goes for, say, bringing a level 7 character to mine diamonds. Yes, those are probably the extreme cases but the point is that one should not try to push the lines.

As for weakening the spawns so fighters can also solo them? That's simply not going to happen.

What could be considered, on the other hand, is to find a way so that spellcasters won't be able to do that either...

[jan]

As for weakening the spawns so fighters can also solo them? That's simply not going to happen.

What could be considered, on the other hand, is to find a way so that spellcasters won't be able to do that either...

Not asking to degrade the spawns to make it EASY for fighters to pass them, just asking if the spawns can be made a bit more realistic with regard  to the fighters.

I have a level 21 Fighter/Weapon master and had to spend every feat on things to get approved as one.
After that i tried to make a fighter character that would be able to make a difference in a fight.
The specialisations in the blade i wield give me 5 attacks in two rounds i think.

Specialisations ...not simple feats , but specialisations that since i took them , prevented me to take other feats for my character.

To me it seems odd to say the least , that giants with bigger weapons and slower reaction times can attack 5 or more times in two rounds as well.
They match my strength ( can live with that because i rely on rings and amulets and they have natural bonuses) and therefor do the same amount off damage i do.
The fact they all seem to have potions on them is a bit weird, but even that i can understand.
Cant understand however the few potions i find killing them since even i get lucky some times and kill them with two critical hits ( doesn't give them a chance to take a potion)

The fact you answer with "....can also solo them" gives me the feeling everyone knows the problem exists but the solution isn't an easy one.

As i said in the first post as i think it would help a lot: Make the monsters magical resistant...that way forcing the spell casters to tag along with fighter types if they want to go somewhere.

The resistance could be server depending: low resistance on west..bigger resistance on central and high resistance on east.
That combined with the thing Ice was working on ( making something around monsters that will destroy summons when they strike the monsters) would help to close the gap between spell casters and fighter types in my opinion.

The only problem i can see with this , is that the spawns ( to be able to be a challenge to the spell casters and their summons) have been upgraded too much by now.

Saying that because more and more often i meet monsters on central that hit my char half the time while i go around with an armor-class of 42 with my expertise on.

Yes ..envy is a factor when i write this ..seeing characters run around in places that your character can barely survive by his own while your own character is a specialised level 21 fighter and the other character is a level 14 to 17 spell-using one that avoids damage by using area spells and that way barely gets scratched...to me at least seems strange if magic is low in the world.
Of-course it remains a fact that the more levels a spellslinger gets , the more powerful they become.
In P&P sessions you can compensate the difference between fighters and spellslingers by items.Since the really good items that we have on Layonara are only dropped on east and the only ones able to go solo to east are spell users( and rogues thanks to the UMD ) therefor making those characters the ones with first pick on those items and only opening up the items to characters that have huge amounts off true once they finally decide to sell some in my opinion furthers the gap between magic using chars and non magic using chars.

*looks up and feels his fingers cramp up*"got a bit long ...

Hope i explained my thoughts better now

Jan A.K.A. Barion

[Pibemanden]

Now I got to comment on this, please do not increase SR of monsters the way I see it now it is allready too high some places introducing it on central giants is just taking it a bit too far. Instead of asking builders to find a way to stop casters from running amok I would rather suggest that the casters themselves would stop and think how they should behave.
Sure soloing can be fun and sure I feel like running amok and does it from time to time with Storold. But I don't solo most of the time I usually run with some others and have some fun along the way.
SR is just a pain to me seeing that most of my fun spells disappear and do nothing when I cast them. Instead I would probably be swift and simply just set my spellbook in stone and not experiment at all just run with the same offensive spells at all times.
So my general stand on soloing is just, don't do it if it feels wrong. Seeing people like say Barion or Storold solo most of west isn't really an issue because we have little gain there, but soloing central and east now that becomes edgy. Instead try traveling in a small group you being such a high level fighter I would suggest having a cleric or mage around for protection while someone like Storold usually brings a fighterish type to help him out.
Building more "fun" encounters instead of simply focusing on making soloing impossible for certain classes should be the main goal for the builders. I can only say that I would really love to see more spawn that demands more tactic from the mages and fighters than spamming spells and simply just clicking on monsters.

[jan]

@ Storold

I love to run around with others and do so most off the time when there are others on.

The problem that arises however is that i cant take low level chars along.

RP wise i cant go out off my way to help others that are in a different guilds to get things they need since my own guild needs the same things.

I know what you'll say now ...share...share the cnr's gathered.

Sharing is fine with me anytime, but since ( with lots off trouble ) i can get the things alone , why would i ?
Why would Barion help others become as good as those in his own guild ..maybe even better ?

I cant see any reason why he would .

The people on at the times i play are either in guilds or too low to let them tag along.

Many times spell caster have been asked to think how their char would act and asked to not go soloing most off the time.
I don't see any change by asking ...while typing this probably a sorc/wiz is soloing east again *shrugs*

Since the spell casters don't seem to learn i have the idea that the spawns have been adjusted to make it harder for them , resulting in fighters more and more being forced to stay home  if no group can be formed .

I don't think this world was meant to be ruled by spellslingers ..if it was then it wouldn't call itself "low magic world "

I don't think this world was meant to be ruled by fighters either.  

I do think this world was made to let people have fun and group up with others ..rping traveling along the road ...spellslingers and fighters side by side.

Its my opinion that NO CLASS should be able to solo ..or only able to it with extreme risk for the life off the chars risking it.

Could any one tell me what the difference in lvl may be to travel with other chars ?

Love to go out with others but since i have been reprimanded more then once by the team for helping too low chars i simply stopped that ..not wanting to have my fun spoiled by dm's getting angry at me.

[jrizz]

Jan, these are really good points. It has been clear right from the start that casters at higher levels are the more powerful classes. And what you say about east is very true, most of the parties you seeing running on east are majority casters and many many times there are groups of just casters. I have a friend who just got started on Layo, when he asked me about classes to play I said hands down Sorc or Cleric. My reason was that at higher levels he will no longer need a fighter type with him where with a fighter he would almost always need a caster with him. We do have to remember that for the first 10 or 12 levels fighter types rule and casters cant go anywhere without them. The problem arises when the caster gets up in levels they leave the fighters that got them there behind and join up with groups of casters to go do the super challanging stuff. You can seehow this can happen though. I have a few casters that I go out with and I am lucky to get to kill one or two bad guys in each encounter, the casters wipe them out (and that is fine with me). The fighters become clean up and really a good summons can do the same thing. Now if these high end monsters that can match a 21 level fighter blow for blow could also sometimes (randomly) cast a hard core dispell magic then things would get interesting. The no one would want to try to solo and remember if a group of casters spells fail (due to a area effect dispell zone) them they are dead meat in seconds where if they had a few hardey fighters with them they might make it out alive.
I really like the no magic zone in the rift it really pushes fighters to their limits and then when you get past that there is no way a group of fighters would survive the rest of the cave. So it is an area that demands a balanced group. I think east should have a lot of these areas, that would balance out the groups that go there.

[Weeblie]

I think the discussion of whether adding more dispell-casting creatures or not has been up before, and the primary conclusion was that it would hurt fighters more than the casters themselves.

Imagine monsters starting to cast Mord's Disjunction. Who will the monster target? The fighter, naturally, as he stands in the front.

So... We now have an unbuffed fighter that goes down in the blink of an eye. Will the caster die next?

No, the caster will not. The caster simply casts Invisibility or Greater Sanctuary to leave the area unscratched.

Dispelling will surely make mages unable to solo... but the side-effect of what I mentioned is not all that positive.

Balancing is unfortunately not an easy task.

Though... What could be very interesting is if monsters started to use counter spells. Instead of having the drow mage casting Weird on you, he or she decides to target a random caster in the party with the counterspell-thing...

[Faldred]

I don't think this world was meant to be ruled by spellslingers ..if it was then it wouldn't call itself "low magic world "

From a mechanics view... a "low magic world" makes spellcasters MORE powerful, relatively, not less, because other classes can't rely on powerful items to balance the spellcasters' abilities.

Of course, it makes life a little tougher on that spellcaster at lower levels, but once they get to a certain power level...

[Ozy_Llewellyn]

My advice on the subject, is give it time. The fact that fighters are the second most humorously pathetic class in Layonara is well known. That magic users, especially clerics and mages totally dominate is also well known. The team is aware of this, that is why Layonara is moving from Low-Magic to Medium-Magic. This was stated in Leanthars initial post about version three, however it will take some serious time to do that roll out.

Normally I’m not patient with the team on this subject, but in this case from personal experience in that area it does take some serious time. Making items, especially re-making items is time consuming and more boring then watching paint dry. In addition to the literal making you have to figure out how your going to balance it in the first place. If your getting into items then your also getting into spells to scale them so that its fair across the board. So when they do the roll out they have to do it all at once, so once again give it time. Balancing isn’t so much hard, as time consuming, also remember it has to go through committee this takes plenty of additional time.

Now then for some bonus fun lets look at both sides of this fun issue.

Warriors – Help I can’t do anything, this is because I’m an item based class and my items don’t keep up with monster equipment, abilities, or overall strength. In the end I’m totally dependent on other classes, show me a little love so I can stand on my own.

Magic-Users – Help! My spell advancement ends at twenty or more effectively seventeenth. They never get better, sure I can get through any Spell Resistance by 25th but I’m unable to deal damage unless I have a summon and go into melee! This is because of insane monster spell immunities or resistances so it takes more then two spells to fry a creature! Also I’m stuck spamming the same couple of still useable spells till the Team wants to throttle me! Please give me some versatility so I can have style, and use beyond ‘buff monkey’ for the fighters with sunburst?

You notice that the magic users are a little more verbose, their problem is slightly more complicated because of the previous efforts to bring them in check. Previous efforts which everyone knows (but not everyone admits) didn’t work to well. The warrior problem is simple, but they are in the end a simple but elegant class type to play.

In conclusion, the team is aware of this problem. It has been aware for some time, and this major issue has been worked on for a while and is being worked on right now. It is probably the most important thing on the team’s plate at the moment, as it effects everyone. Leanthar stated it in his original version three post that we would be moving to medium magic, I can only think of one reason for that to happen and this is it.

So please have patience, when they roll out the big balance fix we can decide for ourselves. If they don’t do a very good job, trust me I’ll be complaining loudest. I’ve been waiting longest after all and I have lots of pent up annoyance.

Give it time, patience is a pain to have and till then you’re a walking punch line but its all we can do.

[jrizz]

I think the discussion of whether adding more dispell-casting creatures or not has been up before, and the primary conclusion was that it would hurt fighters more than the casters themselves.

Imagine monsters starting to cast Mord's Disjunction. Who will the monster target? The fighter, naturally, as he stands in the front.

So... We now have an unbuffed fighter that goes down in the blink of an eye. Will the caster die next?

No, the caster will not. The caster simply casts Invisibility or Greater Sanctuary to leave the area unscratched.

Dispelling will surely make mages unable to solo... but the side-effect of what I mentioned is not all that positive.

Balancing is unfortunately not an easy task.

Though... What could be very interesting is if monsters started to use counter spells. Instead of having the drow mage casting Weird on you, he or she decides to target a random caster in the party with the counterspell-thing...

LOL Good point. But the part about how the rift caves force balanced groups stands.

[hawklen]

LOL Good point. But the part about how the rift caves force balanced groups stands.

Not if you can sneak too! *winks*

[Weeblie]

Not if you can sneak too! *winks*

That's unfortunately touching (or crossing) the borders of the server rules disallowing bypassing creatures to get to the actual CNR and only fight the spawn present there.

Though... Not 100% sure of the exact decision for the no-magic area in the Rift.

[jrizz]

yes of course there are those that sneak past the no magic zone but really that just proves Jan's point. You see a pure ranger or rogue could sneak past that area at like 10th level or less but they would die facing the giants and drow deeper in. So you need to have one of those 5 rogue/everything else caster types to make sneaking past that area worth the effort. So once again it comes back to the power of the caster classes.

But really I as a fighter type player dont mind it, I know that wren is way better to have around then a summon he is more fun, is a good fighter, and a nice guy (but he does take a share of the loot). And when we go to med magic I bet the stuff for fighters will be great. Higher ACs, magic resistance, limited spell like effect items it will be cool and it will make fighters more useful to highlevel groups.

[jan]

From a mechanics view... a "low magic world" makes spellcasters MORE powerful, relatively, not less, because other classes can't rely on powerful items to balance the spellcasters' abilities.

From mechenical view ...aye ....from common sence ..nope.
Where does a sorc/wiz gets his/her spells from if its a lowmagical world ?
Low magic would mean that its hard to find scrolls and hard to find teachers .

I'll go with Ozy on this one, the team seems to be searching for ways to balance things out and i'll simply wait till i hear from them.

[twidget658]

Imagine monsters starting to cast Mord's Disjunction. Who will the monster target? The fighter, naturally, as he stands in the front.

 
 This is not entirely true. The monsters attack the fighters because the fighters attack the monster. The second an arrow is released or a spell is casted...ALL monsters go out of their way to get to the woodslinger or wiggle finger. The monsters will break through a frontline to get to them.
 
 Proven fact! I have played a ranger for years. Just look at his death count. Does he solo? Heck no! The tinkering device exploding on him almost kills him. Look at his craft levels. That is because I am addicted and have to play. When I am not in a party, I craft.
 
 My balance...I also play a sorceress. Both characters have their own personalities. I am highly attached to both.
 
 A certain amount of adapting is required for the players. But I don't think that weakening another class for the sake of making them as weak as another is the answer. Also, I don't think all things are possible or really deserve the required time that it would take to 'balance' ALL things out.

[Drizzlin]

As i said in the first post as i think it would help a lot: Make the monsters magical resistant...that way forcing the spell casters to tag along with fighter types if they want to go somewhere.


Jan A.K.A. Barion

You say this as if the casters do not WANT a fighter to travel along with them. The real problem is there are not many high level fighters. I blame most of this on the DT system and that, sadly fighters die a lot (EVEN when grouped with casters) because they are on the front lines.

Then we need to narrow this down even more as far as casters go. Only a cleric truely benifits from having a fighter with them, because the other casters can not keep the fighter healed. But again I will say that casters, me being one, want a fighter type with us at ALL times. Chanda, Cassandra, and me use to always complain to each other in tells that we needed a fighter of some kind BADLY when we went out, but there just were not enough of them in play. Then my wife made Bakee (fighter/barbarian) to help try and complete our group.

And you mentioned that this is a "known issue", and to some degree it is. That is why when a caster has a summons out, they loose xps on the kills. I refuse to go out and hunt with other casters that have summons out because of that =P

EDIT: I forgot you play a fighter/weapon master...Go find one caster out there who has traveled with a fighter/weaponmaster that would prefer their mindless summons over one.

[Weeblie]

This is not entirely true. The monsters attack the fighters because the fighters attack the monster. The second an arrow is released or a spell is casted...ALL monsters go out of their way to get to the woodslinger or wiggle finger. The monsters will break through a frontline to get to them.

Oh, yes. That's very true and very noticeable if the monster is one of the fighter types.

But the thing is with Mord's Disjunction (and many other spells) is that the monster might not have a second spell of that type to throw at the caster in party. So... first spell is casted on the fighter in the party... The second spell... um... what second spell?

Hehe... unless one stacks a monster full with Mord's Disjunctions? That would be quite nasty, I would imagine...

Beholders are quite fascinating creatures, though. Having one of those in the spawn is like to have a rust monster in the spawn. The battle suddenly becomes rather interesting!

[Crunch]

As someone mentioned above, a mage and a fighter or some combination of mages and fighters really don't make much of a party because a mage really can't protect a fighter from the nastier creatures out there.  When the monsters start throwing out harm and meteor swarm and various other high end spells, you either have a cleric to cast Spell Resistance, or the fighters die.  If you look at the spells available to mages, they can give a lot of nice buffs and protections against mid level monsters.  They can protect themselves extremely well with shadow shield and spell mantle.  They can outright kill a lot of monsters with Wail and Weird.  But they can't really do much to protect the fighters.

The cleric on the other hand can protect and heal and can, through domain spells, pick up a few of the buffs that are normally only available to mages.  Thus it seems like the cleric really is at the center of forming any party headed east.  It may be frustrating for the fighter that the mages aren't running around with him, but it is the cleric that is the key to him forming a party.  If as part of the spell balancing Spell Resistance was added to the mages spell list as some of the offensive spells were toned down, I think the mages would be much more useful in small parties of 3 or 4.

I think most mages would agree that Weird and Wail wouldn't be so attractive if there were other alternatives to cause meaningful damage in a high level fight.  This really gets back to the overall spell balancing that Ozy talked about and I agree that it is a major project.  I wish the team good luck in this project and I'm happy to wait for it.