Haste Modification

[Chongo]

Ever thinking about taking old rulesets and applying them on this spell?

I don't remember the exact rules I'm referring too, but it was something like this.  After the effects of haste wore off the person would have a str,dex,con deficit, something like -2 to each.

The reason I mention this is because haste seems too easy these days in large groups.  Extra attack at full AB and +4 dodge AC does a lot.  And increased movement rate actually permits a relatively death-free experience as most monsters can be outrun.  So here's an idea at least:

Haste:
- Gives same effects as always
- Applies a restorable -2 STR, -2 CON, -2 DEX, and -20% movement rate for 1 turn after wearing off
- Empowering the spell negates the negative effects

This would lessen the extended mass haste effect a bit and add a bit of thought process and flavor maybe...

Again, just an idea.

[FlameStrike]

Can Haste actually be Empowered? I'm not sure, since it really has no variables such as 1d6's, etc...

[Dorganath]

Haste cannot be empowered currently. Under the definition of the Empower feat, id doesn't make a lot of sense, as Empowering works with the random effects of a spell (i.e. damage). Haste is a fixed effect and duration based on the level of the caster; nothing random about it. While we could empower the spell, it just doesn't jibe well with how the Empower feat is supposed to work.

[Weeblie]

It should be theoretically possible by editting a 2da or something.

[Dorganath]

Weeblie - 10/18/2006  8:15 AM  It should be theoretically possible by editting a 2da or something.

 Oh it's very possible. I just mean it doesn't make sense in the way Empower Spell is defined.

[Weeblie]

Hah! My response was actually to FlameStrike's post.

You just happened to post before me!

[Chongo]

Yeah, using empower would definitely be bending the scope of it.  I was focused more on limiting the use of extend.

How about this though...

Extending haste doubles the deficit effects in power and duration.


Eh?  Eh?

[Rayenoir]

I really see no need to change Haste.  It is a magical effect, it is not an overexertion like Barbarian Rage.  Haste shouldn't cause deficits any more than Divine Power or Aura of Vitality do.

[Chongo]

What can I say... I'm a masochist.

[osxmallard]

It's a magical effect which should cause after effects similar to rage.

[Talan Va'lash]

I recall the following from AD&D: After you "come down" from haste you suffer all the penalties of being fatigued, but there was some kind of improved haste or superior haste (both single and mess) that negated the fatigue but were higher level spells.

What we might want to do is add a fatigue system where after x time without resting you become fatigued... and have haste work into this... somehow? It would take a good bit of thought to implement it in a way that makes sense and works since time is so different while bashing and while sitting on a bench in hlint.

By that I mean we tend to imagine more time has elapsed while travelling and less while sitting on a bench for the same amount of RL time. hrmm...

[Polak76]

I think we might be over-complicating a rather simple and straight forward spell.
We could start adding many effects to every spell if we really wanted to and I can think of many.  But is Haste really that powerful?  I've been a spell caster for many years and seen its uses at all levels.  It is really useful but doesn't seem overly powerful.
I vote for leaving it alone.  

Cheers,
Polak76

[Hellblazer]

YOu know sometime things are made a way and you shoud be thankfull it is made that way.  Spells are supose to give you advantages over things that are not spell active, there for giving a minus to something that is intended to give you a plus is realy not constructive.  To be able to hast a whole party, unless you have mass haste, you need to prepare the spell many times taking out other good spells that you could use too.
  but but but balance would you say? If you realy thinks carefully about it. I am not far from balance. Since Sorceror and wizzard will never have the same constitution and strenght as a fighter. How ever good your spells are and how ever good your protection is, if the fighter is up in your face and bashing you like a mad man, how good are your spells if you cant cast them...

[Chongo]

Actually, it's that I think *I'm* actually overpowered a bit with it's use.  I'm a straightforward fighter/rogue.  Not super overpowered, but it just seems too easy when a bunch of melee's get an extended mass haste on them.  I don't mind it, but I thought the idea would be fun to have some compromise to it.

I don't like going after balance issues when they effect others but not me.  That just feels like whining and I usually regret it when I do.  If I was concerned on that end you'd hear terms like 'wail of the banshee' or 'autostunning mass death spell can escape for free if it don't kill them first'.



That there is called a bad attempt at a rhetorical ploy.  


Ack!  The regret's setting in....

[osxmallard]

Chongo - 10/18/2006  7:59 PM

I don't like going after balance issues when they effect others but not me.  That just feels like whining and I usually regret it when I do.  If I was concerned on that end you'd hear terms like 'wail of the banshee' or 'autostunning mass death spell can escape for free if it don't kill them first'.

Yeah and I would be complaining that premonition and 75% concealment is way too much.  

[Harlas Ravelkione]

I also remember the old days when a haste caused the character to actually age 1 full year. Talk about masochism - we would all play elves.

[Dorganath]

I remember that too, Harlas!
  On the penalties...
  Anything which imposes as CON penalty can result in character death in NWN. Haste is not that long-lived of a spell, and generally does time out in the middle of combat unless cast by a pretty high-level caster, and even then sometimes. The result...well, it's just as bad as when someone's CON buffs run out and they weren't prepared for it, though actually enforcing a penalty would make things even worse. The cynical voice whispering in my ear would say that peolpe would start filing grievancea for lost XP, lost gold and/or Soul Strands because of a "bug" in Haste that caused them to die. I'd personally like to avoid that.
  Also, mechanically speaking, I'm not sure how well we could handle the case where Haste was dispelled (by a trap or enemy caster, for instance), because by all rights, there should still be some after-effects.
  And please, let's not clog this thread with comments on the perceived merits or imbalances in other spells. Form your own thread, if you think it's that important.

[Faldred]

Harlas Ravelkione - 10/19/2006  3:14 AM

I also remember the old days when a haste caused the character to actually age 1 full year. Talk about masochism - we would all play elves.

Of course, back in those days, Haste was what, a 5th-level spell?  Almost god-like power?

[Rayenoir]

osxmallard - 10/19/2006  12:53 AM

It's a magical effect which should cause after effects similar to rage.

Why?  The effects of Haste do nothing at all similar to Barbarian Rage, nor does that feat itself give the aftereffects in NWN that it does in PnP.  Also, the spell "Blood Frenzy," (Druid 2 http://nwn.layonara.com/Blood%20Frenzy) does not induce aftereffects even though it is effectively a spell *granting* a temporary Barbarian Rage effect.