Put the Soul Mother to Rest? Maybe? Perhaps?

[aragwen]

Pay to play = NO PERMA DEATH, Anyone stupid enough to try anything differant will spend a lot of time in court. If their lucky, the alternitive is a far more realistic understanding of the soul mudder, with only one strand!!!

 
 I beg to differ. If you pay and play with the full understanding that actions have consequences and one of them may even be permanent death then the player has no grounds. You pay to play, not necesary the same character.
 
 But back onto the topic, I do understand some people dont have a lot of luck when it comes to rolls, but the easiest way to put the soul mother to rest is to not die. Now that is easier said than done, but once you get the right mindset, you will be surprised how easy it gets.

[DMOE]

Ok....totally failing to see how if it's made clear BEFORE people agree to pay that there is the possibility of Perma Death for your characters how on earth they could end up in court.

Now yes, if there is Perma Death it may put off some people from paying but if it's a well documented part of the world and the agreement between provider and purchaser....They are gonna have to either not play or suck it up when their character Perma Deaths.

[twidget658]

I hate seeing the basic/core/principles/main values of a game being changed just because people have played WOW, Rappelz or what ever game they were immortal in.

 
 *shrugs* I wouldn't know, I've never played anywhere else. I started years ago with layo and really have had no reason to leave or look at the servers. I may not like ALL aspects of the server, but I submit my ideas, recommendations, suggestions, concerns, comments, etc. for the staff to consider. If they take it and run with it, fine; if they don't, fine. Am I staying? Yep.
 
 No one likes death in RL, why would they like it in a game that is used for an escape of RL?

[Lord of the Forest]

Back to topic even if I think this has been already mentioned..

There once was a time where the Soul Mother was on her "well deserved vacations" Think that was outcome of an ECDQ, not entirely sure at the moment of posting.. not that it matters right now in this example.

But what others and I have seen that even if XP-loss after 3 deaths was still in order the playing style of some changed as they had no fear the Soul Mother would get them. It was like "Hey the Soul Collector is having vacations, lets do someting silly." I know that is no quote after all but some might thought that way. I am not saying that everyone was that way but we likely got to know that the way as the system works now makes you take care of your character.

And as aragwen already said, actions have consequences. And yes I can talk about it as I was very close to perm more than once.

So what to do? Enjoy your character and keep in mind that they are not immortal after all..

[Falonthas]

once upon a time in a land far away there was a system in place before wizards of the coast made dungeons and dragons a game for every tom  and schmoe

your soul strands so to speak were limited to your constitution score
those of hardy stock could stand more visits
while those of frail health could find themselves to the soul mother much sooner

i speak of the resurection rules from before d20
if a fighter has a 16 for his initial constitution he has that many times he can be raised, or in our case has 16 strands as fighters tend to die much more often
the mages with a 10 in constitution has 10 strands

the mages are behind the lines so while this would seem biased in effect it would balance the strand issue
again this is only on inital as first level goes
raising your constitution throughout the life of the character woudl not raise the initial level of strands
therefore
im sure with our scripting team the soul mother can be tweaked

the roll for evading her gaze would still happen
but if you fail you know from day one how many times she can take a bite no matter how your character lives
a front lining battle beast of a man, or dwarf
or a studious but fragile mage once the magic is used up

[DiegoBastet]

Man, this certainly would be good, the thing of AD&D of Constitution. Don't make THAT much chance, but it would be cool the rp aspect of the hardy fighter being able to resist the soul mother more...

[Varka]

So Are you suggesting immortality then?

And all ideas are welcome of course. Yours as well as mine dude

[Chongo]

Again, we have a limited remaining timeframe with NWN.  Let's say... 9 months for kicks.
 
 We have characters that are 3 years old with 14 DT's.  I'd say there's overwhelming evidence that these players are not going to start new characters if they perm.
 
 I agree with mortality.  I also agree with player retention in the final year of Layonara.  Which way should it go?  I dunno.  Retaining the atmosphere of mortality is in one hand, while retaining and perhaps even rejuvenating the playerbase is in another.
 
 There are a lot of valid points for the current situation, in both directions.
 
 Personally, all I care about is getting a cleric out there to heal me... and the only cleric has 14 DT's and is increasingly wimpy about doing anything... so my view is clearly biased.  
 
 My opinion?  You want to keep players wrestling with mortality, but you don't want them to fade away, quit, and leave.  Run an event, bump SMD to pre-epic, add another epic feat for a total tally of 20.  Either that or make SMD +10, or run an event that doesn't freeze the soul mother, but returns a few strands to everyone in the world.  Feats spent like this weaken a build, but shows the player's desire to continue on.  Sure, 20 is just another bump and the bumps will never end right?  But it will create that buffer for the remaining time, which is the only variable of this entire equation that is out of the player's hands.  It's a timeline issue and nothing more.  It just so happens that a lot of epics are close to perm'ing after all this time, and we don't have the limitless scope of before where they can begin anew and hope for greater experiences still.

[twidget658]

So Are you suggesting immortality then?

 
 No, just a way to get more, reimbursed, etc. Using a feat to get more is huge. Everyone likes feats because it makes the character stronger, more powerful. But to make a decision not to 'power up' and to extend the longevity of your character speaks volumes.
 
 We all know what the system is used for: Population control (some people have to be removed or everyone would make it to epic levels), discourage soloing (reimbursable with GM/WL consent), encourage questing, discourage running rampant and to stay within your ability and the ability of the group.
 
 You can turn it into an RP reason easy enough, but these are some of the reasons for the system and why the system will remain.
 
 For a low magic world, you are just eliminating the fighter characters with 'party fighting' (fighting within a party because fighters will fall before magic users) and the spell casters by soloing. A low magic world has translated into a world that is ran by mostly spell casters. Any doubt, look at the server status.

[Gulnyr]

We have characters that are 3 years old with 14 DT's.  I'd say there's overwhelming evidence that these players are not going to start new characters if they perm.

If a player has one character, and that character has 14 DTs, and that player doesn't want to lose that character to permadeath, isn't that someone who is basically already gone?  I'm not trying to suggest that bench-sitting is somehow not a valid type of play, but dedicated bench-sitters don't get 14 DTs.  I know no one wants to lose a character, and I know a lot of people probably don't want to "waste" a good backstory on a new character that they won't have much time to develop, but people either want to be bench-sitters or they don't.  If they don't want to be bench-sitters, they don't want to use up a character concept, and they don't want to lose their near-dead characters, then those players are already gone.  They're just hanging around for the memories and hoping for a mulligan.  I'm not making a judgement; if I lost Jennara (or feared losing her,maybe), I'd probably not be around so much, either.  I get that.  I'm just not sure I understand why players who don't play anymore out of fear of loss can be considered part of the player base to be retained.  I just feel like I must have missed something in your point.

Rejuvenation, though.  I understand that.  I'm not sure how it maintains the fear of death to push back the end because there is a critical mass of comments, complaints, and whining about the system, but I understand how it can put some oomph back into the single-near-dead-character crowd.  

Of the ideas you posted, I would argue vigorously against any small-scale event that returned Soul Strands to everyone for free.  First, I think a character should have to earn that kind of thing herself (by making it to a feat level and choosing SMD, say).  Second, I think that would partially cheapen the ECDQ that made that sort of thing happen the first time.  I don't have anything against changing when SMD is available or any of that, but I do think the character should have to risk himself to obtain it.   That, I think, would maintain the fear of death pretty well while allowing a chance for those mulligans.  No guarantees.  No freebies.  No god mode.  No 'I win' button.  You have to risk in order to gain.

(As an aside, if you're so afraid that your characters will die that you just park them somewhere, haven't you already lost them?)

[jrizz]

You are missing Chongo's point entirely. The system as it is fails to serve the promotion of the world in the face a limited world life span. Right now player retention and growth of the player base is more important then the integrity of the death system or the value of some ECQD that happened a year and a half ago.

[Gulnyr]

What value is there in growing a player base by eliminating a key feature of the world, thereby fostering a false understanding of what the world is?  Would that not, in some way, give the wrong impression to potential customers?  The integrity of the world, in all its facets, IS Layonara.  

There are better ways to promote things than by trying to rip out part of the foundation to change the paint job.  The Soul Mother and her effect on the world is an integral and important part of the experience here.  The ECDQ that caused the return of Strands is a historical event and part of the fabric, not just some punk thing tacked on because some people started pouting over lost and dying characters.  Layonara is better because there is loss and tragedy, even though it hurts to lose characters we are emotionally attached to.

That doesn't mean I think things must stay exactly as they are.  I just don't think permalife and free Soul Strands are the way to go.

[Dorganath]

All I'll say here is this:

The Soul Mother is not just a means of population control, an incentive not to be reckless, etc.  There's actually a plot-level purpose for her, and a reason for her doing what she does, whether she knows it or not.

[Lord of the Forest]

All I'll say here is this:

The Soul Mother is not just a means of population control, an incentive not to be reckless, etc.  There's actually a plot-level purpose for her, and a reason for her doing what she does, whether she knows it or not.

Eeeew .. don't tell me she's a valkyrie after all Dorg and collects souls for Ragnarök *winks and hides*

But heh, serious now. Sure there a ways to improve the system without making a brand new one as I don't mind her lingering around, waiting for me. Nothing's perfect and nothing will ever be, but we can try to make it as good as we can do right now.

The Soul Mother has been around for quite some time now and I wholeheartly agree that some might be too afraid to go out with their beloved chars whereas they only have one more strand left. But not everyone becomes a "bench-warmer" or inactive. It is kind of thrilling if you ask me. Been there done that as well

[twidget658]

Right. This information has been lost then because the people with the story do not play or are not around to tell it. Therefore, to 98% of the server, it is a means of population control, an incentive not to be reckless, etc.

[Lord of the Forest]

Some info about her can be found here..
LORE: Death

[Dorganath]

Right. This information has been lost then because the people with the story do not play or are not around to tell it. Therefore, to 98% of the server, it is a means of population control, an incentive not to be reckless, etc.

I don't want this to turn into an argument, but the information has not been lost, as it's never been distributed...and for a reason. Unfortunately, I cannot say what that purpose is.  As a means of population control, incentive against recklessness, etc...these are all very valid, but completely OOC purposes. What I am referring to is a very IC reason for her, for her existence, for her purpose and why she does what she does. As I said, I can't tell you what that is.  

That's not intended to make anyone feel better about her, that's not intended to bring back the dead or to stave off perma-death or otherwise assuage any of the other negative emotions surrounding the Soul Mother.  It's just to lend some perspective.

Any resistance to the idea of suspending the Soul Mother, an IC force in the world, due to OOC reasons very much has to do with the purpose she serves and how it would make no sense for her to just kind of...stop.  Additionally, how people behaved (i.e. OOC recklessness, exploiting the "bindstone express", etc.) last time this happened for IC reasons really has lowered the motivation level for another such vacation....for IC or OOC reasons.

[jrizz]

What value is there in growing a player base by eliminating a key feature of the world, thereby fostering a false understanding of what the world is?  Would that not, in some way, give the wrong impression to potential customers?  The integrity of the world, in all its facets, IS Layonara.  

The value is in a growing and "sticky" customer base, a base that is needed to launch and sustain Layonara in its new incarnation and needed to produce the ROI necessary to make the whole endeavor worth while. Remember there are people that are investing a lot of time with the goal of making a living from this.

As for giving the wrong impression, well I am sure that the death system will need to be very different for a business endeavor to be successful. That is just a fact (a sad fact) and anyone that thinks the current death system will translate to a consumer world (pay to play) is being unrealistic. A business to be successful MUST meet its customers needs/wants and judging by the future customers that are voicing their opinions here, there will be a significant change.

[Dorganath]

We have not yet disclosed what the model will be for any future commercial venture, in part because it simply has not been decided in a final state.  We are well aware of the issues related to this for the future and rest assured, we will develop a system that is appropriate for the business model.  Until such time as we announce how things will be in the future, let us please confine this discussion to the NWN incarnation of Layonara.

[jrizz]

But this is all about the current incarnation. For the future business effort to succeed the current player base must grow and have "stickiness", it is from this current player base (the NWN player base) that the commercial Layonara will draw its initial customers. This is the new Layonara's built in customer base and if this base is lost then the risk for the future effort increases dramatically. We need to grow this base to ensure a continued Layonara.