some thoughts

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Best way to deal with this overflow of crafting is to remain steadfast on the pricing and disallow the undermining of other sellers. Layonara's economy can't handle that.

On that note, I would argue that Craftable Items (except maybe weapons and Armor) should NOT me on the drop lists...

[jan]

Let me just ask what are you trying to say. you say that fighters are FORCED to group up to survive in the TD now? And you would much rather have a place to get 3000xp now and then, so you can solo it, instead of grouping up with others?

So you want to be able to solo stuff alone, to get say 2000xp perhaps from ONE spawn, and then you need to rest 25min, like mages do? Does that sound fair to you?

I just want to know if thats what you want.

Always funny to see how people try to twist things and make others look ridiculous

I'm trying to find ways to force different characters to get out off their tightly knitted groups and travel with as much different people as they can so all can see the wondrous areas that are created but now only see tightly formed groups that were formed long ago ( by guilds or ooc friendships )

As for getting exp , i'm very well capable of doing that and if that was my concern i would have lvled two weeks ago on a solo run .

And again .....*sighs* .......this thread has two points ...not one ....

[Blackguy]

Thats an entirely diffrent point your saying now. I would say the reason why guilds/grous are formed is that they live in the same timezone. All of the Ravens who are a tightly knit group are GMT and we all got RL and commitments so we cant allow our self to play before a certain time. Its been like that for years for us. We got kids, school and what not.

The ravens have tried to get other people into their trips, but either it didnt fit with the RP, which we very much like, or the timezones were off.

And im not trying to make anyone look ridiculious. I just want to know if thats what you were trying to achieve and hope for?

[Harlas Ravelkione]

Keep it civil everyone, please.

Regarding the balancing vs. certain classes I can only truthfully state that A LOT has been done over the past few updates. The Thunder Peaks is one example, the Rift another, the Glittering Isles, the Coastal Crags and the Deep are yet more examples. No caster will be able to solo there - no warrior either.

Regarding the crafting I really don't see a problem there - not at all. The little xp one can earn from crafting is small compared to what one earns on quests or by going hunting in parties. As has been stated already, the economy is fragile and keeping prices on the same leves are therefore one way to handle that problem. Many craftable items have been removed from the drop palette - this has been discussed and acknowledged by the Team.

[Gulnyr]

And again .....*sighs* .......this thread has two points ...not one ....

The two topics are very different.  It would probably be better, both for the discussion itself and the people looking through for ideas, if they were split into different threads so the conversations on each are not jumbled together.

[jan]

Thats an entirely diffrent point your saying now. I would say the reason why guilds/grous are formed is that they live in the same timezone. All of the Ravens who are a tightly knit group are GMT and we all got RL and commitments so we cant allow our self to play before a certain time. Its been like that for years for us. We got kids, school and what not.

The ravens have tried to get other people into their trips, but either it didnt fit with the RP, which we very much like, or the timezones were off.

And im not trying to make anyone look ridiculious. I just want to know if thats what you were trying to achieve and hope for?

Maybe i didn't formulate it clearly enough , but what i'm trying to achieve is to give every character the same chance to walk around in the same world and the same diverse area's .

In my opinion  places are adjusted to force the characters to work with more others but since the NEED to travel with others is not there , it isn't happening on the scale i personally was hoping for .
That is why i am not talking about making it easier for fighters , but am talking about making it harder for spell-users ( yes , also the fighters with subclasses that give them access to magic ) to have them join groups even if their own comfortable group isn't on line .

I know how it is to not have time , being a father and working 10-12 hours a day myself .

And i'm not even sure who are in the Raven company since i in char dont mesh well with most off them due to ic reasons .

And again ...there is a thing i ask about before point 2 : !!!!!!

[Dorganath]

Addressing the original points...

1 : To stop the overflow of crafters , maybe dis-engaging travel exp from crafting exp would help ?
Thought about this because a lot off new chars are picking up crafting because its a nice way to help them lvl or so they themselves say if you ask why they picked up crafting .

Most leveling XP from crafting comes from the trip to get resources, not the crafting itself.  If my math is right, the highest level recipe will give no more than about 450 XP, and that would be at a 5% chance of success.  Chances are very good, if you're a high enough level crafter to attempt such a recipe, you're probably a high enough level character that 450XP isn't going to make much of an impact at all, and at a 5% chance of success, the risk/reward number just isn't there.  At a 50% chance of success, you're only looking at about 230-ish XP best-case.

By contrast, it's easy for a single resource run to net 10-100 times this number in a few hours.

2 : Since some updates made it far harder again for fighter characters to get exp , wouldn't it be about time to make it a bit harder for spell-using characters as-well ?
I don't know anything about changes that have been made to force them - as is done with fighter characters in The Thunderpeaks for example - to go out in balanced groups .
A simple solution would be to include in each spawn at-least one creature that is 100 % magical resistant i think .
Since i haven't heard anything about the - kill summons in one blow creatures - that was being worked on a while back , it would help balance things a bit again . ( at-least in my opinion )

Looking forward to find out how the team thinks about this .

Your "simple" solution requires going back through ever encounter and set of placed creatures and adjusting brand new creatures to fit into that particular theme.  It's not "simple" by any means, and it's also rather time-consuming.  On top of that, the #1 problem we have for balancing against the solo mage is summons.  Now, while I (and the Team) see and understand your points, summons were created for a purpose, and that purpose is not carrying luggage.

Further, for every attempt we've made to "force" casters to not solo has been deftly worked around by some clever members of this community (and you know who you are ), to the point where we have spent far too much time on incremental gains.

Since Thunderpeaks has been used as an example, it was purposefully created to have a more melee-oriented party as an alternative to complaints by players of more melee-oriented characters lamenting they had no high level areas to adventure in that didn't require buffing or participation by spellcasters.

Fact is, a buffed melee-oriented character supported by casters are far more able to cut through challenges than solo casters, and such a thing is accomplished in a balanced party.  This is what players should strive for, but we should not need to spend 100's to 1000's of hours rebuilding and rebalancing to enforce this ideal. In the end, even if we did, players will find ways around our intentions, and we start all over again.

Also, people who multi-class get more versatile characters, but not necessarily more powerful.  The idea of making a list of high-level characters you see online isn't going to tell the whole story.  For example, my 20/6/2 Sorc/Fighter/Spellsword is not terribly powerful overall.  He can still go places on Mistone and Alindor that tear him up.  He doesn't summon, and while he can use any weapon he wants, he only uses a staff that does 1d6.  His AC is nearly non-existant unless buffed to the max, and even then, it doesn't get out of the 30's at best.

Our balancing is to encourage balanced parties, but we cannot and will not force it.  

The bulk of this game world was designed and balanced when epic characters were rare.  In the last year, we've had an explosion of 20+ level characters, and the new areas we've introduced have been intended to give them a high-level adventuring experience they didn't have.  In order to do things "right" and have a world that's properly balanced for all level ranges, we'd have to start from scratch and realign everything from creature balance to spell progression.  That is a task that is huge in scope and execution...and we're not going to do it under NWN.

Last comment:  This thread has begun to degenerate into yet another "Class vs. Class" argument that simply has no answer.  Melee and caster classes have different power curves.  Always have, and always will.  It's true whether we're talking PnP or NWN. You all can continue discussing this topic, but do not start bickering about relative class power, because that will put an end to the thread.

[Dorganath]

'm trying to find ways to force different characters to get out off their tightly knitted groups and travel with as much different people as they can so all can see the wondrous areas that are created but now only see tightly formed groups that were formed long ago ( by guilds or ooc friendships )

We're not going to "force" anyone to group with or without anyone else.  Sorry.  That's an RP decision, not something we should enforce with mechanics.

[jan]

Thank you for the clear and informative response Dorganath.

I don't know anything about coding ( or computers in general :p ) so i was under the false impression that the changes i proposed weren't so time-consuming.

I understand that players need to change and that the team can not " force " anything and I'm glad that the team does try to encourage balanced parties

I just hope that this post has somehow made people more aware that we as players need to change .

[Lynn1020]

We're not going to "force" anyone to group with or without anyone else.  Sorry.  That's an RP decision, not something we should enforce with mechanics.

I know this is not the point of this thread. But I do agree with this, unless they are World Leaders of course.  Then they should be out with others, helping new people etc.

[Desicardo]

If I can go all the way back to the first post for a moment, I would like to offer my two cents on point one.  First, the Layo economic problems are not due to an overflow of crafters, nor due to people undercutting prices.  The problem stems from the fact that a vast majority of craftable items are not consumable in nature.  Once made, they exist indefinitely, with the exception of a weapon or armor that is eaten by a rust monster or smashed against a stone by accident.  I dare say there are a good number of weapons, armor, and jewelry that were made pre Blood war that are still in active service today.  Any economy is based on two things, the rate an item is consumed vs the rate it is produced, and to a lesser extent, the value a consumer puts to a need (how important is it for survival).  If cars had an infinite lifespan after being built, how good would the auto market be today?  I would dare say that if a plague of rust monsters suddenly struck Mistone, the weapon and armor economy would jump up dramaticly and those that craft such items would have trouble keeping up with demand.  Higher end crafted items market to a smaller consumer base and so they are by nature slow moving.  You will sell far fewer Mercedes than you will Chevys.  The only items that are truely consumable are food and healing supplies, yet I don't see many of the guilds marketing these items in quantity in prices that will compete with temple offerings, and I don't see anyone offering high end healing supplies at all at any price.  Thrown weapons and ammunition are consumables as well but are so much hassle to craft that prices are outrageous and no one in their right mind will pay 20,000 true for 99 arrows of any kind unless they are a true bow fanatic, in which case they can likely make their own.  It is the bane of an economy based on non consumable goods to become stagnant because old equipment is recirculated rather than purchased new.  The only way to get around this would be to stop anyone from selling anything used some how so old items would have to be donated to temples or othewise taken out of service when an upgrade is purchased.  This would force players to visit the local guild or crafter for their purchases instead of going to the guy on the street that just bought a mahogony bow from someone that just bought a yew bow and is now selling his oak bow he bought from someone else that bought a mahogony bow... the cycle is endless if you get my point.  As long as items remain in circulation indefinitely, the crafters will have little market for new items as the economy is saturated with the old stuff.  It has little to do with how much true is or isn't floating around out there and has everything to do with the lack of need to replace old or damaged gear.   As to the point of XP for crafting, I really doubt anyone is going to jump on crafting as a way to level fast.  In all the time I have spent in the craft hall I don't think I have come close to gaining the XP I have from even 5 or 6 hours of questing.

[jrizz]

I just had to toss in my 2 cents and here they are.

Dont sweat this stuff dude. I for one feel sorry for the uber build unkillable super power over equipped PCs. I just dont see where the fun is in that.

Oh and this line was so funny I just had to say thanks. The medium of the post as a means to converse or debate gives full vent to this kind of behavior so dont let it get you down, rise above it and stick to your point.

Always funny to see how people try to twist things and make others look ridiculous

[DMOE]

Maybe i didn't formulate it clearly enough , but what i'm trying to achieve is to give every character the same chance to walk around in the same world and the same diverse area's .

In my opinion  places are adjusted to force the characters to work with more others but since the NEED to travel with others is not there , it isn't happening on the scale i personally was hoping for .
That is why i am not talking about making it easier for fighters , but am talking about making it harder for spell-users ( yes , also the fighters with subclasses that give them access to magic ) to have them join groups even if their own comfortable group isn't on line .

Ok......I play a divine spellcaster but I'll let you into a little secret...

I hate Thunder Peaks......I truly do....

For a few reasons...

1) I feel useless there.....

I can't frontline tank like a fighter but then, I'm a cleric....so I shouldn't be able to.....I can rarely cast in support of my party and most people forget I can use bandages better than they can

2) What possible sane RP reason is there for my Divine character to regularly and repeatedly go somewhere she is cut off from her Goddess for long periods??

Yes, your cut off in the Rift but you come in and out of those areas and there is no atmospheric, static emote about the changing in feeling

3) I log in, I see who's about, I ask them if they want to go anywhere and guess what?

They are in Thunderpeaks because it's so much easier to travel there without magic users and clerics.....I can't get to them on my own and I have the above reasons for not bothering and I generally find that after waiting a good 2+ hours I get bored and log out before they can get back so we can go somewhere requiring a more balanced party rather than just a balanced party of fighters....

NOW....Having said all that, yes....High level fighters did need somewhere they could travel without having to wait for a magic user or cleric to come on line but to be honest, if you want people to travel with each other more, maybe coming out of the Peaks and organising trips to explore Belinara would achieve that better

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

UMD does not make a character more powerful by any means. About the best thing I've gotten out of it (considering that scroll DCs are PROHIBITIVELY high) is the use of Athus' Touch, which is another couple of healing spells (that don't work in a DMZ) and a bonus to Heal for bandages.

Well, and Gloves of Harmony, but those don't do much for combat.

[Hellblazer]

Thats an entirely diffrent point your saying now. I would say the reason why guilds/grous are formed is that they live in the same timezone.

I'm sorry to say that this is not true. If you take the Angels and the Orcs, both guilds have players that are ranges from +1 gm to -8 gmt. Which I can personally assure you is a real headache to try and plan things. These guilds, (at least i personally know for the angels) were formed by rp first and far most, even before some of use became tight nit.

UMD does not make a character more powerful by any means. About the best thing I've gotten out of it (considering that scroll DCs are PROHIBITIVELY high) is the use of Athus' Touch, which is another couple of healing spells (that don't work in a DMZ) and a bonus to Heal for bandages.

Well, and Gloves of Harmony, but those don't do much for combat.

hum, if you add all the items a rogue or a bard can use due to umd, that would be class specific, if they have the right amount of points in umd. You will find that these give a definite edge over any other classes that are class restricted, because they can not use Umd.

[LightlyFrosted]

Alright.  Much as I hate to see a thread slip into 'such and such a class is overpowered', at least half of this discussion seems to be heading in that direction, and.. well..  yes.  Wizards and rogues and fighters (oh my) have different skill sets, and different times when they shine.  Everyone has a niche.  Soloing, although a discouraged practice, probably won't stop unless there's a good reason, but removing the aspects of a mage which make the higher level ones 'unbalanced' would also make the selfsame characters 'ineffective', and probably 'dead'.

Regarding the use of UMD, well..  let's face it.  Rogues, although extremely useful on a dungeon crawl, aren't melee fighters first and foremost.  UMD, while it allows them to do things that others cannot, doesn't put them in the same weight class as wizards.  What a rogue is, is a specialist with ostensibly rare skill sets, useful when those skill sets get to shine.  UMD is yet another skill set, and not one which is always helpful.  A rogue with high UMD can use items that a fighter cannot, or that a wizard cannot, or that only a paladin can otherwise use.  This doesn't turn them into the Terminator, particularly since items like wands and scrolls are one-shots or limited charges, and are generally moderately expensive.

As far as bards go.. well, bards are support characters.  No one ever accuses a bard of tanking, even with a tricked out UMD.  'nuff said about bards.

The whole wizard-fighter debate is true and untrue.  A high-level wizard has the accumulation of spells and spell-slots that they've acquired on their way up to the top, but heaven help them if they run out of spells, and getting there can be tricky as well.  A wizard who attempts to 'solo' at the lower levels is simply going to die.  A lot.

Perhaps it might be regarded as 'there is a fighter/wizard unbalance, which favours fighters at lower levels, regards them as mostly equals at the middle levels, and favours wizards at the higher levels'.  They both have times of superior firepower, but these times are different.  As well, in a dungeon crawl, a fighter with a backpack full of potions of heal is more potent than a wizard.  Sure, a wizard can deliver blows that deal more damage than any individual blow a fighter can deliver, but that's a blow that wizard cannot deal AGAIN until the next time he or she rests, unlike the fighter who can keep sword-swinging as long as he or she is still in the world of the upright and animate.

That is, in fact, why summons are so popular, as are transmutation spells like shapechange, Tenser's transformation, and polymorph self.  It's wizards saying 'hitting things is probably more effective in this instance'.  While not a cure all (or in this instance, 'kill-all'), there is a method to that sort of madness.

There are other classes that have perks, of course.  Clerics and druids, along with being decent-if-not-perfect frontliners, have healing magic, something which if not wholly exclusive to them (they share it with paladins and bards), is at least something they do better than most other people.  Monks are, like wizards, easily killable at lower levels, but one of their class features grants SPELL RESISTANCE.  A higher level monk, perhaps hasted, is one of the scarier things in the game to contemplate.

Every class has its advantages and disadvantages.  There are null-magic zones in which wizards are shoddy fighters who bap people with sticks.  Fighting beholders is also something in which wizards play a better supporting role than a direct one, if only because they're quite helpless if said beholder decides to use an anti-magic field.  While higher-level wizards can be quite effective at blasting away an enemy or two, even they can get swarmed, swamped, and swallowed.  A front-line fighter or two keeps things in at a bit of a distance - or at least enough of one to allow the wizard to be really effective.

No man is an island, and the same can be said of adventurers.  Wizards can be good at soloing, it's true - less so those of us without summons to call upon, but we're still somewhat effective.  It's more fun to go in groups, but forcing people will just make them find some other way around it.  Encourage, yes.  Have fun working out party dynamics and tactics and strategies?  Certainly.  Let the wizard's summon soften up or distract some of the baddies while the real fighters whale away at it.  Party play is the better way, but it's up to players to decide if that's what they want to do that day.

So, in conclusion..
Fighters - Lovely chaps, preferably standing between me and the opposition, wearing full-plate and with as big a sword as they can lift.  Also, often splendid miners.  This also includes: Barbarians, Paladins, and for those with a lot of patience, monks.

The Faithful - Druids and clerics, of course.  Handy chaps to have along, especially if breathing is in your daily 'to do' list.  Just as useful as fighters, because they're standing right behind you guys, keeping you strong and sturdy. This also includes: Paladins, I guess.  Oh, and alchemists, but they're just not as effective.  Plus, their healing can be kinda expensive.

Sneakabouts and spellsingers: Bards and rogues.  Both people with specialized skill-sets, not useful in every situation, but helpful in many.  The rogue, with a LOT of skill points to spend every level, is your go-to guy for traps, locks, and magic devices that can only ordinarily be used by left-handed men named Sally.  Also, let one get behind you, and learn the meaning of the phrase 'sneak attack!'.  Bards, along with having a fair smattering of intriguing spells, have the bardic song, a tactic designed for party-play.  Both a little lacking in the HP though, so sticking close to a fighter and a cleric might be a good idea.

Wizards and Sorcs:  The oft-complained about.  Sure they can solo, and some may even prefer to, but it's a lonely road, and a dangerous one as well.  I'd rather have one on my side behind me, than against me.  And if I do have one against me, I'd like two behind me.

Nothing can make any of these people party-play or solo.  It's up to them, really - what they find more enjoyable, and what they want to do.  Regardless of who you are, partying is often the only way to get through a tricky set of circumstances.  No-one can walk alone everywhere, and while some might find some circumstances easier than others, no man, gnome, dwarf, elf, half-elf, half-orc, wemic, tiefling, aasimar, or whatever is an island.

Do what's fun.

EDIT: And now, on to point #1.

I'd vote against removing travel XP from crafting XP, if only because, although it's unlikely to level anyone above level 12 wholly through crafting XP, it can be a good supplement to the people who don't view themselves as being warriors.  There are a number of characters out there who aren't the sword-swinging types by nature, although they may acquire the knack or inclination through practice.  Besides, it could be argued that crafting XP is non-militant training for an adventuring trade - the wizardly trades being the most obvious examples of this, but a gem-crafting rogue would certainly have to work on his fine-manipulation skills, and a fighter who swings a hammer over and over to beat out a breastplate is surely converting some of this into his sword-swinging arm.

The whole 'bard/musical instrument crafting' thing sort of goes without saying.

As well, it's a nifty little perk to encourage people to pick up a craft.  I wouldn't want to start a chicken and the egg thing with prices and numbers of crafters, but these days, sales of crafted items alone isn't going to encourage anyone to try to make things, however much it may have motivated them once upon a time.  And crafting, while far from mandatory on Layo, is a darn good pass time.  It's something to do other than going out and killing things when there's nothing big happening and you're not in a hugely talkative mood.  Heck, it can inspire roleplay - 'This is a sword, I bought it' isn't as interesting a story as 'This is my sword.  I fought back giants to mine the ore, smelted the ore into the very metal of which my blade is made, and beat it into shape, folding the steel a hundred times for seven days on end.'

Lots of crafters does mean that there's a lot of crafters.  It means that prices will drop, and that crafted items will be a buyer's market.  I think that there are a lot of other reasons, other than just XP, that cause people to pick up a trade however.  But the XP can be nice, and it can be a good invitation to learn a craft, which in turn, down the line, can be a positive, contributive part of the role-play experience.

Just my two cents.

[stragen]

...is your go-to guy for traps, locks, and magic devices that can only ordinarily be used by left-handed men named Sally.

Sally is left handed?  That would explain a lot.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

LightlyFrosted hits it as well and better than the Player's Handbook II, though the latter goes into a bit more depth.

If anyone has access to the aforementioned supplemental sourcebook, give it a read. It's enlightening, in some respects.

[LordCove]

In regards to crafting... what I would like to have seen is some of the "high end" craftable items removed from some loot drops. This of course no longer applies... since many of the items I referred to are already out there in circulation... and the damage is done.

It kind of defeats the purpose when a crafter has crafted his butt off to be able to make certain specialist high levels items... only to find the reason he is not being employed to make them is because they now drop regularly in everyones favourite traveling areas.

There are probably more... but three main  examples.

Hunter Yew Bows... these require an almost ridiculous amount of resources to make...ranging from scrolls of 1st to 5th tiers, essences of sight by the half dozen... and various other parts. They are the pinnacle of the craftable bow making ladder... and yet drop often in various places.
So someone who spent an awful lot of time crafting woodwork ( *coughs* ) is now only good to make his friends a few arrows.

Although Ive only seen dropped once... Legendary Dire Bear leathers. After helping someone do repeated runs to the cave to get the pelts... which is kind of difficult.. and again, being the pinnacle of the Tailor's trade.... they should be receiving requests for these suits to be made... not finding them on drops.

Emerald rings and Amulets... needless to say. Im varied on this... as I always thought it was a little "over-difficult" to get emeralds and/or mithril unless your teamed with one of the good groups ( we know who they are  ).

Now... I'm certainly not complaining. My character has both found and is using some of the dropped items from above, and I aint dropping them.
But, even though I cant make some of the above, and in receiving them my char's become a little harder... Im sure it still must be a slight kick in the teeth for the Gem maker who made 500 Fire Opal rings in order to be good enough to make Emerald rings... only to find no one orders any or uses his talents because they drop from the sky in other areas.

My fifty bob  

[stragen]

What I would like to see is for high end loop drops is that:

Instead of dropping completed items, incomplete CNR items are dropped.

For example, dropping a raw (or even polished) emerald instead of an emerald ring.  The hilt for a super-duper sword of smiting not the sword itself.

But this is more for Layo2.