Alignment/Dogma conflicts

[Witch Hunter]

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[SIZE=13]Tana na na! yet another question bordering the lines of religious insanity, fanatical dogmas and silly alignments that only gods can provide! Brought to you by yours truly. [/SIZE][SIZE=13]So, as you all might have noticed I'm asking lots of questions regarding faith, cleric and all that mumbo jumbo because it is a very confusing subject, and by very I mean very very.[/SIZE]

 
 
 

[SIZE=13]My question this time sprouts from defined alignment restrictions to what the moral code and religious law a dogma has... an example based on my own experience (which let to this question:[/SIZE]

 
 
 

[SIZE=13]During the "Elemental Mystery" quest my character was brought up with a situation that led me (Me being the player, not the character) to a dilemma which is the following; Imagine yourself an old person that nearly lost everything in his life... his only daughter nearly killed by a raging demon led him to saving her by the only way he knew - plantamancy! (I made that up..) using plants, herbs and other various stuff he was able to save her from dying, effectively transforming her body into half plant.[/SIZE]

 
 
 

[SIZE=13]Now comes the problem... I am chaotic good, as such I should let it go as he only wants to keep what little he had thus sparing him deep sorrow... but my dogma states " Any extension, transformation, alteration and corruption of the natural form and shapes of being is an affront against the sanctity and purity of life" [/SIZE]

 
 
 

[SIZE=13]So I act according to that, but his stubbornness and refusal to accept a grimmer faith WOULD (it did not, not yet at least) lead me to having to end her excitants myself, possibly - "Violence is the last option; use it only on those who defy these teachings"[/SIZE]

 
 
 

[SIZE=13]Now comes the dilemma I experience (as a player trying to play his alignment and follow his dogma) - What would I do? End them myself? Try to reason with him until he got fed up with it? Clearly he has a reason, he's trying to avoid sorrow and I'd assume watching your daughter die involves a lot of it. If I do choose one way or another I'm still condemning him to sadness - which is evil, very evil.[/SIZE]

 
 
 

[SIZE=13]Another example in this field of dogma-alignment conflict is with Rofireinites... You have a good person that upholds the law. Said person encounters a thief who just stole a loaf of bread from a bakery nearby and confronts him only to discover said person stole to feed his starving family - what is he to do?[/SIZE]

 
 
 

[SIZE=13]The trickiness is on the personal level here as what others have to say about how you deal with things has little relevance beyond IC relations between said characters, but on the personal level of things people take into consideration things like evil/good alignment shifts and other various roleplay factors... Which is confusing and eventually leads to fall from grace and other religious affairs. [/SIZE]

 
 
 

[SIZE=13]So... any thoughts? [/SIZE]

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[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Per your examples, in the hopes that I can explain through them...

Daughter's gravely ill; father's a nature-magicer, and wants to turn her into a half-plant to keep her around. An Aeridinite comes across this.

Aeridin is Neutral Good. This means that his clerics can be LG, NG, CG, or TN.

Lawful Good - Probably would try to keep the father from making the change, but would PROBABLY not kill the girl after the change. While it is a perversion of life to keep her alive through (mostly) unnatural means, it would cause much greater harm to her and to her family to let her die - with the main emphasis on the former.

Chaotic Good - Would probably allow the change without argument, and perhaps even support it. While she would be changed, she would still be alive, and her father would be happy... It's not like he's making her into a zombie or anything.

Neutral Good - Would probably allow the change, and probably wouldn't argue very much about it, though it would definitely be a case of the good of her living outweighing the bad of her becoming less "pure."

True Neutral - Honestly, I think this one could go any way, but would be more likely to prevent the change than, say, Neutral Good. Less emphasis being placed on preventing harm to the father, y'know?

EDIT: Okay, so the change has taken place. I don't think that anything other than a truly zealous paladin of Aeridin would kill the girl if she'd already been changed. Even then, I don't think Aeridin would be too happy with the paladin.

Now... Onto the next.

A thief steals bread to feed his family. A Roffie comes along and catches him at it. This gets a little easier to explain.

Nearly all Rofireinites would (well, should, as I understand the dogma) turn the thief in for proper punishment. For LG and LN, it's because The System Is All. For NG, it's more that if the system isn't fair to everyone, it fails, and it's not a Good system.

However. The more Good (i.e. compassionate) characters would almost assuredly try for a lighter punishment for the thief, and some would go so far as to support his family while he was in prison, and even if he wasn't.

[Acacea]

The person stealing the bread is still a thief, and still broke the law. There are MANY interpretations of alignment available, but when making a divine character there are usually some that are more appropriate to others. All his motivation means is that the thief is Chaotic Good or something - but as an upholder of the law, Chaos is exactly what a "Good Lawful" Rofireinite is opposing, right?

Think about it. Do you need to let him go without punishment to help his family? Why? What is really the punishment for the first-offense of stealing a loaf of bread, particularly when you get it back, in anywhere but Prantz? A warning? Community service? A "next time you'll lose your hand, buddy" ? A good character could aid his family as they are clearly in need, in that you are helping him, but he broke the law and he needs to understand how to work within the law for good, because succumbing to chaos allows darker things to do the same. As well, the baker needs to feed HIS family, and in these times can you imagine how hard it was to get the bread to be sold in the first place?

If the punishment does not fit the crime, then it seems the law needs to be adjusted to better serve its purpose, but that has nothing to do with the motivation of a criminal. You must make an effort to see that the law preserves justice and protects the common people instead of harming them - not help them break the law. IF you are good. If you are evil well, they deserve what they get, the filthy criminals. Right? (As a note to Stephen's post, there are no NG clerics of Rofirein, unless he just means followers in general - but for non-cleric followers things aren't quite so hard.)

I don't think it's possible to say, "I am chaotic good and thus I should..." nor "I am Lawful Good and thus I should..." There are just too many different interpretations. My CG Lucindite is used to and cool with a large number of things that a CG Aeridinite would be furious about - which version do you think would be appropriate if a CG Lucindite cleric is made? What about Aeridin?


Aeridinites are among the best healers of the world; instead of trying to make him lose his daughter, perhaps she could be given to the care of some of His best healers to try and undo what has been done and still save her life? Or something similar. Or take them to healers of Prunilla, also brilliant healers and beyond skilled with plants, and wouldn't try to smite her when she walked in the door. It's possible that between the two something could be done.

Aeridinites would likely break their backs trying to save her, and would grieve with the old man, surely, but what if he then tried to raise her as undead? And she was a good undead, didn't eat brains or anything and she was so happy to have a chance to see the world again even in this form, for a little while, and it kept the father from going mad?

This is also a horrible thing in Aeridin's dogma, and one of the more clear-cut ones - but is it any different? It's a hard call, but rather than saying "gah see I just came across this incident that doesn't make sense between alignment and dogma" think, few clerics in Layo actually ever have trials of faith. They have divine abilities that are rarely tested other than in combat, never stood against the tide of grief and other options that may be taken. It is indeed a question of faith, so you can't really ask us what he would do... we should ask you instead. Can he find a compromise of good and dogma? And since his dogma is supposed to be good in the first place, perhaps the compromise he seeks IS the dogma.

[Witch Hunter]

Lots of good points given there Acacea but things that come into mind are also cleric level and power - I doubt a level 9 cleric has the ability to reverse such magic... and what if by reversing it he'd kill her? etc etc.
 I was going straight by the code here though - the option of reversing the state did not occur to me at the moment (But I doubt it could be accomplished)
 
 Regardless, that was on example of many - and especially because theres no every day divine trial to characters people can bend rules and do stuff like that without fear of losing their powers - it should be there, that's why questions like this rise. It's like a dogma template applied to your alignment, no?
 
 

Chaotic Good - Would probably allow the change without argument, and perhaps even support it. While she would be changed, she would still be alive, and her father would be happy... It's not like he's making her into a zombie or anything

 
 See that would be going againts the dogma to it's fullest, which is something im trying to avoid otherwise it would be easier.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Going against the dogma? Sorry, but I must not be reading the same dogma at all. *Scratches his head.*

Last I heard, Aeridin was one of the kinder, more compassionate gods, who hated Deaders because they screwed with the Cycle. A girl who's -still alive (didn't die)-, but just has some plant bits? That's not great, but it's not that bad. It would be a minor crisis to figure out for Ceviren, but then, he would just try healing her anyhow, as Acacea mentioned. (Ceviren, by the way, is Neutral Good, rather than Chaotic.)

A Chaotic Good cleric is more likely to follow whatever they think the deity would favor, rather than any set of specific strictures. Basically, instead of having their own moral compass, they have a deity's.

Acacea's right about NG Roffies. They wouldn't be clerics, as Roffie is LN. My mistake.

[magnusarin]

I agree wholeheartedly with the LG/thief dilemma and have little more to add. The LG character would still arrest him and he could help the guy find work after his sentence, recommend his family to the church as in need of aid. There's alot he can do.

As to a chaotic good character in the other circumstance, the biggest things about chaotic good characters is freedom. In the PnP books it talks about them being the biggest opponents of slave rings and the like. I think you could take the stance that the old man turning his daughter into half plant is trapping her in a way. She's not being allowed to pass on as she should (whether the old man acknowledges it or not). Granted, it depends in large part to what the girl herself wants, but I think it could be seen as trapping her soul in an unnatural body. I have a CG Ranger/rogue and this would be his take on it. Granted, he's mostly from the ranger mindset and see's it also as a perversion of nature so to him it's an affront on both counts. Granted, this is just one way of looking at a CG character's mindset on this situation. There are HUNDREDS of way to enterpret the alignment based on what's important to the character.

[Acacea]

Any extension, transformation, alteration and corruption of the natural form and shapes of being is an affront against the sanctity and purity of life.

And yes Witch, but I didn't say "try to heal her yourself," as that's understandably beyond the abilities of a single cleric, even a decently leveled one, probably. There are many temples though, and those of greater abilities could maybe manage. Perhaps the father could accompany such an attempt. Or they could be brought to him, so that he need not fear she will be simply kidnapped and then killed. Without knowing the difficulty level in what he did, I can think of one NPC who would likely be able to accomplish such a thing, others are likely a tossup...

Some more foaming at the mouth faithful may try it - as CG you may even be sneaking about your temple feeling around for those who are a) able to aid in such a venture and b) are compassionate enough to avoid taking the quick route, without giving true purpose until you are sure she will be safe or something. Isn't that a bit chaotic, knowing you may go against the will of the temple? But if you succeed in both saving her life and cleansing the plantamancy, do you not pretty much rule in Aeridin's eyes?

edit - the first sentence was not a response to the above post but rather commenting on the key part of Witch's dilemma in dogma, or rather any Aeridinite cleric's dilemma in dogma.

Another edit - See, a lot of different CG interpretations here... mine would say "oh plantamancy, right on! *high five*" as long as PlantGirl was content with her lot in life

[Weeblie]

The difference between a cleric/paladin of a faith and any other follower is huger than most people believe. The second might or might not follow the dogma very strictly while the first -will- put the dogma before everything else.

The dogma comes first, middle and last for a cleric/paladin. It goes before their own personal beliefs, or rather, it -is- their belief. That's at least the theory behind those two classes, although, it is not unheard of people straying away from the dogma and sometimes, either willingly or not, leave the said deity.

It's not the dogma that has to shape around the alignment, but rather the alignment that has to adapt to the dogma!

Edit: Hehe... and, yes... A CG character might... wriggle around first and try to find some un-orthodox way to fix the situation, if there is any. But the dogma is still something he would keep in his mind all the time even if he might crash with what the church would normally do to handle it. :p

[Witch Hunter]

New dogma (the one at North Point):
 
 Preserve and protect life, the gift to exist is not one to be taken lightly and thus one must live an exemplary life, devoted to benevolence and care. tend to those who ail. offer your gift of healing to make their stay in the mortal realm a wholesome experince, yet once death has taken its toll, respect the passing and enjoy the found memories of their life. Do not dwell or mourn those who past for too long, death is sadness, but without understanding sorrow, one can not understand happiness.
 
 Promote health and the well being of the body and mind before everything else. Any extension, transformation, alteration and corruption to the natural form and shapes of being, is an affront againts the sanctity and purity of life and should be confronted with at first, with gentle lessons and benevolent teaching, and if such ways do not work, with a stern and firm stance instead. Violence is the las option; use it only on those who defy thiese teachings.
 
 undeath is the most blatant aberattion to the sanctity and purity of life. put them to rest by any means necessary so that their souls may reach their homes. use the gift of the caring light to bring brightness to the darkest of places, never succumb to its temptation for they only bring a taint on the spirit.
 
 Edit:
 

The difference between a cleric/paladin of a faith and any other follower is huger than most people believe. The second might or might not follow the dogma very strictly while the first -will- put the dogma before everything else.
 
 The dogma comes first, middle and last for a cleric/paladin. It goes before their own personal beliefs, or rather, it -is- their belief. That's at least the theory behind those two classes, although, it is not unheard of people straying away from the dogma and sometimes, either willingly or not, leave the said deity.
 
 It's not the dogma that has to shape around the alignment, but rather the alignment that has to adapt to the dogma!

 
 Exactly what I thought, but now the question remains... could this lead to alignment change in general if the actions the dogma suggest are harsh?
 
 
 

Some more foaming at the mouth faithful may try it - as CG you may even be sneaking about your temple feeling around for those who are a) able to aid in such a venture and b) are compassionate enough to avoid taking the quick route, without giving true purpose until you are sure she will be safe or something. Isn't that a bit chaotic, knowing you may go against the will of the temple? But if you succeed in both saving her life and cleansing the plantamancy, do you not pretty much rule in Aeridin's eyes

 
 Excellent idea there, noted and will hopefully be used in the future
 
 

Another edit - See, a lot of different CG interpretations here... mine would say "oh plantamancy, right on! *high five*" as long as PlantGirl was content with her lot in life

 
 One of the thing that ticked my character off was that she didn't even know she's a tomato, I did ask the guy to tell her and see what her reaction would be but there was no comment as the group moved on to different things, still planning to bring it up next session though.

[gilshem ironstone]

If I do choose one way or another I'm still condemning him to sadness - which is evil, very evil.[/LEFT]

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I think you should divorce yourself from this idea as well.  I think most priest's with a compassionate, spiritual heart, would not view sadness as evil, but more an experience to be learned from and inevitably overcome.  Not a desired emotion, but also not frowned upon.

[Witch Hunter]

Oh not at all.. I follow the "death is sadness, but without understanding sorrow one can not understand happiness" thingy, but on a player level I could sense something wrong with doing that, I wouldn't want it done to me as a person for example.
 
 Not to mention it would make half the group angry

[LynnJuniper]

That's another issue that comes into play.

1) Being the Dogma
2) Being the Alignment
3) Being the Fun factor and not infringing on the fun of the other members of the group and them understanding what it is your doing that may be seen as a 'waste of time' or even start some animosity that may not be needed.

All three of these things have to balance sadly though I have little answers.  I like Acacea's suggestion of perhaps bringing the girl in question (in this example) to the Aeridinite healers. I speak from personal experience in saying that they're good ones. No, an Aeridinite would not allow for any unnatural extension (We could get into the whole shape shifting/transmutation thing here but please...lets not) but he would do all in his power (or in the power of those connected to him) to better the situation for all people involved. Especially one of a Good alignment. I don't mean to give you the answers for a GM quest, but there is at least one spell/ritual that may make a difference that I learned about through a GM quest of my own. The Trick is to
A) Put some effort/off quest time into thinking about it
B) Follow your Alignment AND Dogma to the best of your ability , in the clerics case, with dogma preceding alignment (You have a bit of wiggle room with the Chaotic though)
and
C) Make sure everyone's having fun

[Dorganath]

"Any extension, transformation, alteration and corruption of the natural form and shapes of being is an affront against the sanctity and purity of life."

Alignment aside, this is the key phrase here in this question for an Aeridinite...especially a cleric.

I don't think it's all that difficult of a thing, really. If I had an Aeridinite cleric, this one sentence would seem to say that Aeridin would rather the girl died than be some freakish, impure, cross-genus hybrid.  Taking Chaotic Good into the mix, I would attempt every other available option that did not violate Aeridin's dogma, but would absolutely not sanction or aid in such a transformation.  I might even go so far as to say my character would have to be physically restrained if he was present for the process.

[jan]

Totally agree with Dorg here.
Even-though we all find it very important that we all have , no one can expect that you play your character wrong to keep the peace in the party.

Its one off those things that you will run into now and then and probably one off the things that makes other characters look completely different at your character.

Clerics/paladins have intertwined their lives with their gods more then any other and will stay true to their faith if others falter.

That doesn't mean they wont try to find other ways around a thing like this , but i do think that if there is no other way , they will eventually follow their faith no matter what others in the party will think off them afterwards.

[lonnarin]

I'd just let her die of the disease... *then* resurrect her.  heheh.

"Any extension, transformation, alteration and corruption of the natural form and shapes of being is an affront against the sanctity and purity of life."

Uh oh... does this mean Aeridenites can't cast Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace and Bear's Endurance?  Alteration spells and all... giving Peewee Herman muscles isn't exactly natural.  What about polymorph and druids/shifters?  Whenever Skabot turns himself into a troll, should Aeridenites come to smite him?  When read literally, this line seems to me that ALL transmutation spells are inherently banned from Aeriden's repetoire.

[Witch Hunter]

*druid shapeshifts*
 "BLASPHEMY!! *hammer of the gods*"

[ycleption]

I think other people have analyzed the specific example sufficiently, but I think in general, the dogma comes first, but is viewed through the filter of your alignment. You follow your dogma, but how you apply it may be more a function of alignment.

[Weeblie]

That particular concern was also brought up (by myself actually ) in the writer forum. And here's the answer:

Using the level 2 spells like Bull's Strength is okay, it's temporary, not a big change, and not harrmful and more or less within the range of the astral locks. But there will always be purists within the church who think even that is too much. That the body should never be enhanced. (Some nice contention within the faith, hehe).
  Barkskin/stonekin isn't really messing with the astral locks, it's adding a temporary protective layer, so that should be fine, but again, some will probably disagree.
  Item wise, if it's buffs like the level 2 spells, the same argument applies. Some would say they are just temporary and not damaging others would say it goes against the base of the faith.
  Polymorphing or shapshifting or whatever is of course off limits for all as then you'll really be a different creature.

So, no... your character would not be smited for using most of the spells in the school of Transmutation.

BUT... Polymorphing, the ones that really changes your appearance to some other creature's, is strictly prohibited and a cleric/paladin of Aeridin would frown upon any use of those abilities/spells and is obviously not open for different intereptions.

Edit: Curious of what the Astral Locks are? Heh... Wait for the next handbook... I surely will not tell, at least... :p

[Witch Hunter]

Curious of what the Astral Locks are? Heh... Wait for the next handbook... I surely will not tell, at least... :p

 
 
 .... gg

[lonnarin]

Indeed, good take by Ed there.  Just try to find a religion that agrees 100% of the time on everything... can't be done.  There's no such thing as a "Christian" anymore, but Catholics, Protestants, Amish, Unitarians, Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, etc...  and even though they worship the same deity, even they come to bloody war with eachother over the manner in which he is to be worshipped!  

Still though, funny.  Aeridenites look down on shapeshifting and have very strong ties to Katia, a following of mostly druids... and the alliance is mutual.  I could just imagine the High Priest of Aeriden telling Plenarious the Birdlord...  "I'm sorry, I really am.  Our faiths of nature are nearly as one on the battlefield and we both despise the undead like no other... but the wings, man... the WINGS!  It's... it's, just... Sacrilige!  Can't you wear a cape or cut them off or something?"