Roleplaying of some spells

[DiegoBastet]

Hello people, I created this topic so the people could put their ideas, ask their questions and this kind of thing about roleplaying some spells.

For myself, I have one question, that I think it's pretty interesting. The spell Awaken, is a druid spell wich makes the animal companion stronger. Now, everyone knows that for game mechanics and possibilities, there was no way to Bioware to recreate all the spells with things that were found on the pnp D&D, so I came here to ask about this:

In the PnP D&D, this spell, Awaken, makes the animal companion stronger, but also smarter. In fact, it awakens the animal to human sentience (Hence the name. To tell the truth the spell can be used to awaken animals and even plants.), giving him ability to speak and all. In the original NWN game this would not prove so invaluable as in the PnP, so I think this is how the spell does not do this, but on a roleplaying world like Layo, I was thinking if this could not be roleplayed more closely to the PnP. Now's the question: Is it wrong for a druid to roleplaythat his animal companion can speak by the time he is ale to cast this spell on his companion? As a 5th circle spell, the druid will only cast it after a while, and then the bond with his animal companion will be very strong at this time. For example, in the pnp game, Eliza, the character I will play now tried by any means to awaken Moju, her animal companion, and it was a great thing for the group, as the big wolf brought another kind of humor and rp to the table. In Layo, Eliza will try to awaken Moju too, be it by the Awaken spell or any other means (like a CDQ only for this).

After all, what do you think? Could, and should, this be roleplayed or not?

[LynnJuniper]

Personally  I don't see why it can't be used in pnp and especially on Gm Quests. However its always best to check with the GM with a message like (Hey I want to try this, what rolls do I need and is it okay?).

You get it in the arcane field too since a LOT of spells couldn't be added in. I usually have Rhynn going around making illusions to her heart's content and its usually alright.

As with so much else, its mostly a matter of common sense and , in the case of quests checking with your GM.

[DiegoBastet]

Hum, so it's not wrong to make my animal companion "speak" in the world when the druid has access to the spell Awaken? Good to know that this is ruled by the common sense. Thank you.

[Weeblie]

Not commenting on this particular spell, but...

Note that not every spell that's available in PnP can be used here.

For example, one of the low level spells available for wizards in PnP that grants the caster the ability to speak in all languages is NOT allowed here on Layonara.

So, before roleplaying this with your animal companion, I would suggest you to wait for the answer of L or Ed. I have a very strong feeling that this particular spell you are talking about is going to get a "no".

[DiegoBastet]

Seriously? Do you think that? Oh, well, than i'll have to wait, good that I asked huh? That's why I made the post... (Nothing at all, I don't have the character yet, since she was not aproved and I'm still waiting to create her. Don't have much time to play besides weekends, and I'm waiting eating my fingers away.)

Just by the way, not that it matters, that spell Compreend Languages enable you to understand all languages. The Tongues spell lets you speak in any language, but it's a higer level spell. But, anyway, thanks GM Weeblie.

So, good master Big L., what do you have to say?

[EdTheKet]

Awaken
  Transmutation
  Level: Drd 5
  Components: V, S, DF, XP
  Casting Time: 24 hours
  Range: Touch
  Target: Animal or tree touched
  Duration: Instantaneous
  Saving Throw: Will negates
  Spell Resistance: Yes
  You awaken a tree or animal to humanlike sentience.

 That's from the 3.5 system reference document.
  Now, for your question
 

s it wrong for a druid to roleplaythat his animal companion can speak by the time he is ale to cast this spell on his companion?

 Well, even if we did allow this spell, there's still the question on how all of a sudden this awakened creature would know a language without it ever getting taught. As stated, we also do not allow the spell that gives somebody all languages, so they can't just all of a sudden know how to speak.
  In addition, there's also a physical reason, they don't have the vocal chords to actually talk.
  Of course we do have the "ear for animal language", but that language is not really a language at all. It is only the ability to comprehend and understand the feelings and emotions of animals and helping them understand you. It's not a language to have big conversations in.

[DiegoBastet]

GM, this is retoric or a question for me to awser and try to prove my point? It's not a chalenge this question, but just a question.

If it's the second option, I can ask, but first, just to complete things (there is no law problem about putting this here, since I bought the book and am using this only as reference already put on the SRD. I already did look into it, don't worry).

"You awaken a tree or animal to humanlike sentience. To succeed, you must make a Will save (DC 10 + the animal’s current HD, or the HD the tree will have once awakened). The awakened animal or tree is friendly toward you. You have no special empathy or connection with a creature you awaken, although it serves you in specific tasks or endeavors if you communicate your desires to it. An awakened tree has characteristics as if it were an animated object (see the Monster Manual), except that it gains the plant type and its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are each 3d6. An awakened plant gains the ability to move its limbs, roots, vines, creepers, and so forth, and it has senses similar to a human’s. An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD. Its type becomes magical beast (augmented animal). An awakened animal can’t serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount.
An awakened tree or animal can speak one language that you know, plus one additional language that you know per point of Intelligence bonus (if any).
XP Cost: 250 XP."

-The vocal chords: I don't think that this is REALLY a problem. If magic can give human-like inteligence to an animal, so it surely gives it the means to use it. If the spell gives part of your knowledge to the creature, to it be able to speak, then surely it would, speaking in science terms, "modify the vocal chords so the animal would be able to not only reproduce, but vocalize with subtle tones the humanoid languages".
-The description more or less states that the creature (or plant) gets his new mental strenght based on the caster. It learns the language the caster knows to the extend of his (new) intelect. This makes clear that the magic uses the knowledge of the caster and "imprints" it on the creature.
-I understand what means the Animal Ear, thank you GM.
-Anyway, the 3.5 spell states that animal companions could not be the target of this spell, but on NWN he is the only target eligible, that's why I thought about asking it. Many say that many things are different from pnp D&D and all, and since the connection of the animal companion seems to work much like that of a familiar, I thought that letting high-level druids being able to mae their loyal companions speak was not out of bounds.

Finaly, if the questions were retoric, sorry GM, if not, them their awsers are here.

Hope that this can be thought about a little more in-depth, and even if this spell do not give the right to the player RP the animal speaking, I think this is a pretty valid objective for a CDQ, right? It says "things that can't be done normaly during game", so to my character, who kind of loves her animal companion, I think this would be a great objective!

[miltonyorkcastle]

This isn't a thread about animal companions, but it still might be helpful as to what Layo's stance is on creatures and their ability to speak.

http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=34687&posts=50&mid=224167&highlight=speaking+familiar&highlightmode=1&action=search#M224167

and I know there was some other thread about animal companions that I think IceDragon commented in, but I can't find it.

-The vocal chords: It is a problem here in that the ~type~ (or school, etc) of magic involved in increasing an animal's intelligence and the type involved in transforming an animals vocal chords/tonge-muscle structure /jaw structure into viable speech organs are quite different, and would therefore require at least two spells to accomplish the desired result of the animal speaking in vocal language.

I understand your point that the idea behind magic is that it lets you do what a person normally cannot do in the real world, but remember, magic, at least on Layo, is very structured and has limits like everything else.

[DiegoBastet]

Ok now, if you are saying that no, no creatures except faeries dragons, imps and pixies can speak as familiars, and no, magic does not some things that magic "usualy" does, then ok. But again, is this, finding a mean for her wolf to speak, creating a spell for this, having the bless of the hierophant, of a god, you got it, is this eligible for going after with a CDQ?

[miltonyorkcastle]

It being possible as the after-effect of a CDQ or WLDQ is a question I can't answer, but there are some around who should be able to, though, perhaps, this isn't the forum for such a request.

[EdTheKet]

Sorry, but there will be no speaking animal companions, no matter what creative solution you can come up with, also not after CDQ or WLDQ.

[DiegoBastet]

Ok, thanks GM. That killed me.

[Hellblazer]

Not to get dematerialised by the gms here, but when Rain comunicate with his pseudodargon, it speaks back to him. I know its the engine of NWN and how they set it, but there is multyple options, like play for isntance, where you would get your familiar sing rhymes or play riddle with you. all of those who are within talking distance to me would also "hear" this.

[darkstorme]

Well, if your pseudodragon is talking, it shouldn't be.

Given that pseudodragons and fairy dragons have INTs above 10, they can communicate telepathically with their master in a "speaking" manner, but...

Pixies and imps can talk. Other familiars cannot.

In other words, no, no one within talking distance would "hear" anything.

The druid and ranger bond with their animal companion, though mystical, is not in fact magical - while their companions may be particularly intelligent members of their species, they are not of human intelligence, and are not gifted with a magical ability to speak.  Ed was making it clear that under no circumstances would any effect akin to the "Awaken" spell from PNP would allow someone to get around the "animals cannot talk" rule.

And even animal language isn't really speech.

Creature familiars (panthers, rats, whatever) are still animals and can "communicate" to the same degree as animals can.

They cannot, however, speak in common or some other "language".

Keep in mind that the Ear for the Animal Language is not so much a language as it is a common means of communication with animals. People who have entire conversations in Animal kind of misses the point of the thing. Animals, with very few exceptions, lack the intelligence to form full thoughts and sentences with perfect grammar.

So while your animal might convey, in animal language "Danger.  Big big human past trees" (Giant over past the trees), it wouldn't say "By the way, your conjugation of the past participle was really awful a moment ago.  You really need to work on your pronounciation."  The long and the short of it being: pixies and imps talk.  Les autres?  Jamais.

Edit:  I should point out that one doesn't need to talk to be understood.  The character Steel did a lovely job in a recent quest; he never spoke a word, nor *made any gestures that conveyed that he wished to point out that there might be something immediately around the corner*; he conveyed information just fine by pointing, or gesturing.. to his eyes, then the floor ahead, to convey "watch for traps", for example.  Now, an animal wouldn't be able to convey things quite as clearly... but they could certainly look in a certain direction and growl for danger, or tug on a hand/clothing to lead someone.  

PS.  Great work, Steel!

[Carillon]

Not to get dematerialised by the gms here, but when Rain comunicate with his pseudodargon, it speaks back to him. I know its the engine of NWN and how they set it, but there is multyple options, like play for isntance, where you would get your familiar sing rhymes or play riddle with you. all of those who are within talking distance to me would also "hear" this.

Hellblazer, I think this is a slightly different situation than the one you are describing. The issue was whether an animal companion could speak, not a familiar. The pixie, imp, and faerie dragon familiars can speak common, but no other familiars and no animal companions whatsoever have this ability.

Animal companions lack the intelligence and vocal chords to reproduce the sounds of human/elven/whatever language. I believe this was what the team was trying to get across when they ruled that under no circumstances would an animal companion be able to "speak".


Hope that helps,
Carillon


(Furthermore, are you roleplaying your pseudodragon as speaking Common? According to a previous and very extensive thread on familiars, only fairy dragons, imps, and pixies can speak common. You might want to check out this reference link below if you're unsure about this issue.

Reference: http://www.layonara.com/general-discussion/112827-do-familiars-talk.html)

[Hellblazer]

the only time that has happened was with SOnya and her pseudo dragon, Elhen and draco talking back together etc. But not with other people for a long time ( over 4 or 5 months to be exact).

And Darkstorm, great french =)

the only thing i find biz in this is when Elhen decides ( Rains pseudo dragon) to play riddles with him, she gets Rain stomped. Rain int 14 nat, Elhen 10 nat hehe.

But aye comunity wise, Pseudo can't talk.

[DiegoBastet]

Guess I'll have to be happy with what I have. Anyway, there's no reason why Eliza can't TRY to search for something, since this is her heart's deepest desire. Does not matter if she will do it because of the rules and the "doesn't matter how creative" stuff and all: She doesn't know about that, and the hope is hope.

AND, it's great rp!