What Not To Say.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

A note, before we begin. I'll exaggerate at points in this post... And I'll say things that are deliberate and obvious digs against people who do or don't do such and such (though never anything directed at a specific individual). These are NOT meant to anger or offend anyone, but simply to get your attention. I welcome any input, agreeing or disagreeing, as this is purely my own opinions, done with a satirical and wry slant.

Now, there've been plenty of discussions, debates, and outright arguments about characters and their speaking habits. There have (from what I've seen) really only been three sides to the debate:
A) You can't tell me how my character should talk! It's my character!
B) SHUT UP. YOU SOUND LIKE AN IDIOT AND IT'S GETTING ON MY NERVES.
C) Yeah... I'm staying out of this one.
Myself, I've always been one of the B people. After all, there are a few things that really irk me, even coming from some of the more experienced players (though they are, of course, far more common from newer players, and often enough by no real fault of their own). I'll be compiling a list, in a moment, but first allow me to explain to you why I felt the need to post this thread.

I've seen, more and more, lately, the "quality" of RP at Layonara go down. So have many others, including Leanthar himself. A very large part of this is the propagation of OOC terminology, most often used in an IC fashion.

In fact, there have been some rather notable incidents in which people have simply disregarded IC speech entirely! At least some people have expressed an interest in becoming better RPers...

In the interest of improving overall RP quality, and that is to say, to preserve the immersion so many of us here strive for, I have decided to compile a list of things commonly used that seriously stink up a conversation. As well, I've included some things which irk me a bit, but I can't really condemn.

To begin. Numbers.

In English classes here in the 'states, schoolchildren are taught to write out any number less than one thousand (1000). For example, one is written instead of 1, thirty-five instead of 35, and so on and so forth. While I can understand writing 3649 instead of three thousand, six hundred forty-nine, I fail to sympathise with those who refuse to write out ten thousand, six hundred, forty-nine, one, two, six, et cetera.

The term "-k" really gets me. Out of character, sure, I have no problem with it. But in character? Honestly, is it impossible to say "two thousand" or even 2000? Even as distasteful as I find the use of numeric representation of numbers in speech, 2000 is DRASTICALLY less impactful upon my immersion in the situation than "2k." If you wish for an easier way to say, for example, fifty thousand, why not "fifty large" or "fifty grand"? Those also, while perhaps a touch anachronistic, fit better than 50k.

I can't say 1. I'm not a telephone. I can say "one" fine, but not 1. Would a knight really say something like "Oh, yes, and I just donated twelve-kay to the temple."

Secondly. Internet slang.

This, admittedly, is not as wide-spread a problem as the numbers, and in fact is something that the playerbase polices very well all on its own. But to reiterate...

lol is not *laughs,* u is not you, i should be capitalized (I), and the affirmative statement "Okay" is NOT spelled O.K.

Third... And probably far more important than even the numbers.

OOC terms, used IC.

I'll visit my favorite (well, least favorite) two terms: Rest and Buff.

You cannot "break" a rest. A rest is time period, not an object. You can, I suppose, interrupt a rest, but not break one. Something else that is VERY important to remember is that not all (and in fact not many) "rests" are times in which the character actually sleeps; ESPECIALLY NOT AT THE BOTTOM OF A DANGEROUS CAVE. Or even in the top of one. Perhaps your character pauses to pray for spells, or study a spellbook, or simply clear their thoughts... But going to sleep above a troll-infested cave after having recently slain a troupe of vampires on that very spot? Riiight.

Buffing. Buffing is what you can do to the new tile I just had put in the guildhall. Buffing is what you can do to the hood of my car when you come over. Buffing is not something you do with spells. A "buff" meaning "enhancing spell" is an OOC term. Perhaps you could "buff your fighter up with a strengthening spell," but that's about it. Death Ward does not make you stronger. Nor does Magic Weapon.

Speaking of magic weapon! Greater Magic Weapon might be the name of a spell known to a wizard, but... Really. First off, who would ask "Please cast Greater Magic Gun on my gat!" rather than "Please enchant my gun!"? Secondly, and more importantly, GMW IS AN OOC TERM FOR GREATER MAGIC WEAPON. IT IS NEVER AN IC TERM.

Undeath's Eternal Foe is not UEF. It might be "Foe" but never UEF.
Negative Energy Protection is not NEP.
Isaac's Lesser Missile Storm is not ILMS.

The list can go on for a long, long time. I'd rather it didn't.

Now repeat after me:

We are not going to use OOC terms IC.
We are going to do our best not to let our laziness in typing shatter other people's immersion.
We are going to use proper capitalization and punctuation whenever possible, and not worry too much about spelling because not even Ozy can do that. (That second half is a joke, by the way. Laugh.)

Okay, so. The big, important stuff, I've said. Now on to a few personal things that I in no way feel I have place to insist upon, but would like to request.

"Hi" is a very modern, very lame term. Would a weapon master whose mighty blade cleaves through the most nefarious of foes really say "hi" in a non-satirical way? Not to mention the sheer anachronism.

"Ok" is not how one spells "okay." I mentioned this above, but... I suppose I can't really be too harsh about this one. I don't believe there is an "officially correct" version, anyhow. I just find it harder to preserve my immersion when I'm having to parse lingo into real words.

Please, please, please, if you're going to use Early Modern English (Shakespearian English, for those of you who have lives instead of studying etymology), BRUSH UP ON THEE, THOU, THY, and THINE. Heck, brush up on it all. I can live with having characters spouting Sigilian Cant and Early Modern English standing side by side, but can the latter at least learn to use the language properly? I understand that it's moderately difficult, but... Perhaps if you have trouble, stick to what you know. I can spout the Bard's English all day, but I just don't have the mastry of it I would need to carry on an in-depth conversation, covering all of the proper nuances I could convey in Modern English.

Thee should not talketh like this.
Thou shouldst speak in this manner.

If you'd like, I could post a reasonable guide for Early Middle English... But then, there are plenty out there on the web.

Or in a book of Shakespeare's works.

Anyhow. I'd like to go ahead and reiterate, before anyone goes off on an offended rampage, that in those parts I was somewhat biting, it was merely to attract attention to the section, and make the reader think. Nothing in this post was directed at specific individuals, and I took the time to come up with original examples, rather than quoting things I've seen specific people do in the past. This is in no way intended to single out individuals, nor to bash on any one person (or group).

Though, honestly, if I have to put such a disclaimer, perhaps I'm afraid that the lady's on track to protest a bit too much. (That's another Shakespeare reference.)

[Witch Hunter]

Hi.






Well not really
I agree 100%... or do I mean..one hundred precent! *he shifts his eyes back and forth and then explodes into a fine bloody mist*


I'm taking that number bit to heart! thanks.

[Jearick Hgar]

i agree whole heartedly man. A lot of people do use words/phrases that i don't agree with for the time period expressed. I personalyl don't like "ok" beign sued. I don't sue it with Tath, but thena gain Tath doesn't know wnay Mainlander slang. I never see anything written in those times with the word "ok" meaning "yes" or "Affirmative". Ok means to be doing well, or a little less than well, not yet.

I also hate seeing over used phrases. both phrases that are used irl and used in rp, but are severly over used. a good Example, though i don't see this one on Layo, would be "Avast me maties, whar's tha booty?!". Why put an over used phrase into a char you created? I realize i say "yuh mon" but that's part of the accent, and i actually try to stay ways fromt he phrase as mcuha s possible saying such as "yuh" or "yuh den" or "ibi agreein wid yuh mon"

Lastly, unessicary characters. i HATE unnessicary characters such as " ?!?!".or " -*you-*" tryign to emphasize a word. jsut use one set of chars or try capitalizing the whole word to show you emphasizing. you don't need to fill up my screen with a bunch of useless characters to make me figure out what your trying to say.

my two cents heh.

[kenty191]

Also agree with mostly all of it, and I had myself been comtemplating a post like this having witnessed a great deal of this in the past week or so, however you have beaten me to the punch Stephen and so I am happy to agree.
  The only part I do not agree with is regarding the Rest function. Now I have never RP'ed that Karn sleeps during a rest, for one I'm not entirely sure elves sleep here, but aside from that, I would imagine all classes have different lengths of rest. For example would a wizard learning all of his spells rest as long as a barely injured fighter? This said I do understand the point, resting near a dangerous area is irresponsible IC. However if your character is irresponsible then that would be RP *Grins*. A very grey area this, to me at least.
  I would also like to add, that if any see such things occuring or hear things which they believe to break immersion, SEND A TELL, to those involved. This has been said many times and in practise it is hard, after all who wants to be the 'big bad police'? But I for one have decided for the sake of RP in this wonderful community that little constructive comments are useful to curb the use of language highlighted by the original poster, and I will be sending such tells should I feel it nessicary.

[Nyralotep]

Agreed, it really irks me when I see someone making those type of comments IC.  I don't mind someone giving me tells about it but if we're IC it spoils the moment.  having said that I can understand new people doing it and will try to help them out to not do it but sometimes your advice in not received in a positive manner.

But right on the mark Stephen!

[Faldred]

Related image ( warning: one mild "swear word" )

[ycleption]

I agree with you except on the numbers issue. Even in academic writing, style varies considerably, with many manuals advocating using numerals for numbers larger than nineteen. Personally I just type slowly, and nearly always use numerals because it helps conversation flow.

[Laldiien]

Stephen has made several points, most of them I agree with. OOC, slang, buffing, all good and valid. I think, however, the point of RP is getting lost in the details. Role play is the interchange of ideas, expressions and the communication of thoughts that you have while playing someone else.I don't think Iam a bad role-player because I happen to type 25 instead of twenty-five. I think I am a bad role-player if my Lawful Good character decides to go waste a village of Kenku just "because they are there". I'm not a bad role player if I "thinkest I shouldst talk like thiseth". (Although, typing that makes my eyes bleed) I am a bad role player if I ask "Didst thou happen to learn the outcome of yon Superbowl?"
  If Galen is selling an item in game and says the price is "25,000 true and a not a penny less, but if you're a Lucindite and you’ve got nice legs, we can haggle." I think you know what Galen is trying to say. Galen is conveying the price of the item, he won't haggle unless you follow his goddess and you have nice legs. Then he may give you a discount. Some people are not good typists. They may not speak English as a first language. They may be non-english speaking bad typist who a playing a half-ogre fighter. You are going to tell them how their character should speak?
  Now, I don't think the point of Leanthar's post was to say "You must role-play in this fashion, or it's wrong". I didn't come away feeling like that. I came away feeling that he was disappointed by the lack of people attempting to role play. Not the way they do it. I think that you have 20 people standing around Hlint spouting about how their god is the one true god, and how Broegar must be punished for his evil deeds and they are doing using bad typing, poor spelling and mashing the Queens English to paste, the GM team will be tickled pink. They are being a part of the community. They are trying, they are acting in the spirit of a role play server. Have I wandered off the RP path from time to time? Yuppers. Was I nudged back into place? Yuppers. Was it because of my typing, spelling, grammar, tonal inflection or accent? No. It was because I was bitching in party chat about my crappy day and why I wanted to drop my boss on his head.
  If someone is trying to role play, genuinely trying, even if they aren’t doing it to your standards, don’t worry about it. This isn’t life or death. This isn’t even a serious matter. This is a game that we play to have fun. What we do when we aren’t doing things in real life.  Now repeat after me: We are not going to use OOC terms IC We are not going to get worked up over spelling, pronunciation, or accents We are going role play in the spirit of the server. Speak of the things the residents of the fantasy world Layonara would know about.  We are going to have fun, and not attempt to dictate what is right or wrong as far as role play styles are concerned. What works for me, may not be suitable for you, and that’s just fine.
  *Edited. Mis-spelled Stephen's name. Almost hurt myself laughing.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Laldiien - 2/7/2007  3:18 PM    Stephen has made several points, most of them I agree with.  OOC, slang, buffing, all good and valid.  I think, however, the point of RP is getting lost in the details.  Role play is the interchange of ideas, expressions and the communication of thoughts that you have while playing someone else.  I don't think I am a bad role-player because I happen to type 25 instead of twenty-five.  I think I am a bad role-player if my Lawful Good character decides to go waste a village of Kenku just "because they are there".  I'm not a bad role player if I "thinkest I shouldst talk like thiseth".  (Although, typing that makes my eyes bleed)  I am a bad role player if I ask "Didst thou happen to learn the outcome of yon Superbowl?"
  If Galen is selling an item in game and says the price is "25,000 true and a not a penny less, but if you're a Lucindite and you’ve got nice legs, we can haggle." I think you know what Galen is trying to say.  Galen is conveying the price of the item, he won't haggle unless you follow his goddess and you have nice legs.  Then he may give you a discount.  Some people are not good typists.  They may not speak English as a first language.  They may be non-english speaking bad typist who a playing a half-ogre fighter.  You are going to tell them how their character should speak?
  Now, I don't think the point of Leanthar's post was to say "You must role-play in this fashion, or it's wrong".  I didn't come away feeling like that.  I came away feeling that he was disappointed by the lack of people attempting to role play.  Not the way they do it.  I think that you have 20 people standing around Hlint spouting about how their god is the one true god, and how Broegar must be punished for his evil deeds and they are doing using bad typing, poor spelling and mashing the Queens English to paste, the GM team will be tickled pink.  They are being a part of the community.  They are trying, they are acting in the spirit of a role play server.  Have I wandered off the RP path from time to time?  Yuppers.  Was I nudged back into place?  Yuppers.  Was it because of my typing, spelling, grammar, tonal inflection or accent?  No.  It was because I was bitching in party chat about my crappy day and why I wanted to drop my boss on his head.
  If someone is trying to role play, genuinely trying, even if they aren’t doing it to your standards, don’t worry about it.  This isn’t life or death.  This isn’t even a serious matter.  This is a game that we play to have fun.  What we do when we aren’t doing things in real life.  Now repeat after me: We are not going to use OOC terms IC We are not going to get worked up over spelling, pronunciation, or accents We are going role play in the spirit of the server.  Speak of the things the residents of the fantasy world Layonara would know about.   We are going to have fun, and not attempt to dictate what is right or wrong as far as role play styles are concerned.  What works for me, may not be suitable for you, and that’s just fine.
  *Edited.  Mis-spelled Stephen's name.  Almost hurt myself laughing.

 Say. My post had the effect I was going for.  This is really cool.  I AM STEPHEN ZUCKERMAN AND I SUPPORT THIS MESSAGE.

[lonnarin]

As annoying as they are sadly, anachronymns existed prior to the invention of the internet.  So yes, while it's annoying and I loathe to see it on the server, it in itself is technically not out of context of any age or era.  Else all of us in the U.S. (a lazy shortened form of the anachronymn U.S.A.) wouldn't ship packages with U.P.S. on our way to the mailbox next to the D.M.V to drop off our tax forms to the I.R.S. so that the F.B.I and C.I.A don't pull up our files on the PC and contact the local P.D.

Some helmet-head in the Mistone military theoretically might refer to the Mistone Alliance Scouts as M.A.S., mages might be knowledgable of shorthand anachronymns for their spell titles, a dwarf might order a B.L.T. at a tavern... these are examples of probable usage of anachronization.

The time where it truly crosses into internet slang is where the player behind the character themselves is plain too lazy to type things that they should be emoting.  LOL for example...  ok, let's play devil's advocate and play the anachronymn game...  does that mean the person, instead of laughing at a joke, stands there blank faced, stating loudly "Laughing Out Loud!"?  No... LOL should never be used in this context, at the very core of its usage it is nonanachronous.  The correct usage would be "I am" or "he is  laughing out loud" for this to be proper.  without a subject, "laughing out loud" is an incomplete statement unworthy of the English Language.

BRB & AFK...  both should only be used in emergencies and OOCly.  There are no keyboards in the middle ages, and "Be right back" has just as many syllables as "BRB" therefore making there no plausable reason to anachronize the phenomes for simplicity.  OOC is inherently brought up in an OOC context, and is at least as permissable as the OOC pre-dating "OOC".  So "//Brb" is ok if you need to check on the baby or let the dog out quickly, but NOT ok when used from the mouth of a character performing something in the game... ie: "BRB Ozy, I need to go polish these gems at the crafthall, thanks for the story though!"  That's just lazy, and not representive of the ingame actions occurring.

That's my take on it anyhow, a utilitarian view of grammer usage per current context parameters.  As for the Spelling out of numbers less than 1,000... that I feel is acceptable shorthand.  It's not like the Bank teller says, "Welcome XXX, you have twenty-eight thousand, three-hundred and sixty-four Queen's True in your account!"  No, he's a slacker.  Blurts out a number and that's it.  Honestly, I don't worry too much about that, I could always read the number aloud to myself if I really wanted to and get the same effect as an extra 40-something typed characters would bestow.

[Eight-Bit]

I am EightBit, and I support these statements above.

[Gulnyr]

lonnarin - 2/7/2007  5:48 PM

As annoying as they are sadly, anachronymns existed prior to the invention of the internet.  So yes, while it's annoying and I loathe to see it on the server, it in itself is technically not out of context of any age or era.  Else all of us in the U.S. (a lazy shortened form of the anachronymn U.S.A.) wouldn't ship packages with U.P.S. on our way to the mailbox next to the D.M.V to drop off our tax forms to the I.R.S. so that the F.B.I and C.I.A don't pull up our files on the PC and contact the local P.D.

Just for clarity, these are examples of abbreviations, not anachronisms.  I think you might be thinking of acronyms, which are similar to abbreviations.

[stragen]

[yellow]
What is RP?

Everybody that just read that question had a different answer, I just about guarantee it. There is no [/yellow]“right or wrong way”[yellow] to RP as long as the spirit of RP and the spirit of the server and community is followed and in tact. And as long as the rules of the community/server are followed and it did not involve meta-gaming, cheating, hacking, etc.

[/yellow]
[yellow]-Leanthar[/yellow]


1) Lead by example.
2) Send a friendly tell if actions don't meet the above statement.
3) Respect diversity.
4) Focus on the positive.

There are some excellent points inthis thread.

[Wintersheart]

and the affirmative statement "Okay" is NOT spelled O.K.

"Ok" is not how one spells "okay." I mentioned this above, but... I suppose I can't really be too harsh about this one. I don't believe there is an "officially correct" version, anyhow. I just find it harder to preserve my immersion when I'm having to parse lingo into real words.

*coughs*

The Associated Press Stylebook recommends the spellings "OK, OKd OKing, OKs" and states "do not use [the spelling] okay.
(from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okay)

I can appreciate your points about slang - especially internet slang. When it comes to spells its a bit more complicated. Spells have names and common spells would be known to most veterans, even if they aren't spellcasters. Still, I agree NEP, GMW etc should be avoided.

Regarding English in general - please be mindfull of the fact that many players are NOT native english speakers. Punctuation, word order and (obviously) spelling differs from language to language. Many 'international' players won't be able to spell perfectly,always use the correct word order or use punctuation correctly. Then again, neither do most native English speakers.

[lonnarin]

Gulnyr - 2/7/2007  3:27 PM

Just for clarity, these are examples of abbreviations, not anachronisms.  I think you might be thinking of acronyms, which are similar to abbreviations.

YES!  that's the word! Was spacing out at work listening to Judas Priest and thought Acronym needed more syllables, heheh.

[lonnarin]

Wintersheart - 2/7/2007  4:14 PM

Then again, neither do most native English speakers.

VERY true.  Don't any of you feel shy from talking in game if English isn't your best language.  Pop culture in the US is such that pet shop parrots often have more vocabulary now than our own native speakers.  I ran into a fellow a few days ago that couldn't even manage the minimum of two grunts... "uh-uh".  Instead he just kind of combined it into one very long and exasperated grunt that sound like he was passing a kindey stone and waved his hand a little, shaking his head, going "Uuuuungh!"  Apparantly that's the new American slang for "no sir".

As you can see, we are all doomed... http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070207/ap_on_hi_te/techbit_im_speak

[OldBear]

I agree, hmmm, one hundred percent, with the post.  However a couple of points I would like to add.  In order for me to play, I only have my chat screen open about an inch or two.  This limits what I can see when I type.  If I type too much at one time, I am doing it blind so it is much easier to make typos, etc.  I often would say 100% then instead of typing it out to save space.

I don't believe I have ever used "lol."  I much prefer to do *chuckles* which causes my character to actualy respond with laughter and the voice emote fits the situation much better I think.

As for proper english.  Dalan is a dwarf and I have sort of taken a scottish type brogue for him that it appears many of the dwarfs on layo have. I am also trying for a fighter type mentality and someone who knows not everyone can speek the dwarf tongue so he uses common. I am no expert in the language however so I try to type what would, I think if read, give that feel.  For instance, "Me understand what yer saying, dese ogres are tough foes indeed." or perhpas, "Dat was real nice of ye, thank ye for healin me.  I dinna mean to let dat last one get quiet dat close to me."

I am not sure if that is the type of thing that would drive you crazy or not?  I would agree that Dalan is definately butchering the king's english.  But I like to think it makes him a bit more unique and yet understandable.  As for typo's and capitalization.  My typing skills are about average, but when trying to respond to several people all typing at once, I often mistype and use i instead of I.  Which is worse, do that or go  //I ?   I use the // when I have mangled the word I wanted so badly that what was previously said makes no sense.

My point is, that numbers don't bother me, abbreviations do more, we have some good emotes for laughing so why not use them, and I will work on my spelling and typing.

[Carillon]

In my humble opinion, the only time an accent gets annoying is when it is not typed consistently. I could care less if someone wants to say "Thank ye for healin' me" instead of "Thank you for healing me" and I definitely agree that the accents can help develop characters.

What's annoying is when the spelling is so inconsistent it becomes hard to read. As long as you consistently say words the same way (like someone with an accent would) and don't change the spelling/pronunciation every two sentences, I'd say a Scottish brogue is just a delightful bit of colour that helps flesh out a character even more.

[_M_O_B_]

I incorpate my Australian accent into my characters speech to make him seem heaps more country-ish and have really bad common.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

The dwarvish bit isn't butchering the language so much as it is transcribing an accent. "I thankest thou for thee actionseth," on the other hand...  I definately definitely understand about non-native English speakers - honestly, the only reason my command of the language is anything decent is because I've been trying to write for so long. If I tried joining a French-speaking server, I'd be in deep, hot water. I actually did try joining a Spanish-speaking server for a little bit... Man. That didn't work out too well.  Spelling doesn't bother me, for the most part. I read through typos and misspellings, but wen ther typin like this it hurt my bran. I can tell the difference between someone who's struggling with the foreign language (the sentence structure typically gives it away) and someone who just isn't trying... Thankfully, in both cases, the problem clears itself up quickly, because Full Immersion really does work.  A sidebar on "OK/Okay": The Associated Press can... Do something unpleasant. It's a pet peeve of mine, and I've always felt that most non-acronyms (as "OK/Okay" has grown into a word of it's own from Oll Korrect - yes, I do read sources) should be spelled out. That's why, after some thought, I mentioned it in the "personal but not really important" section. Interesting info on the etymology of the term, though; thanks!  Numbers... Yeah. I suppose I waffle back and forth on some things with this, in regards to just the numbers ( "ten thousand" versus "10,000" for example ), but my stance on the term "-k" is solid. Not only is it just... Ick, to use it IC, it's also somewhat anachronistic. As I understand it, the use of "k" at the end of a number representing that many thousands is a moderately recent thing... Past hundred years or so.