Dark Elves

[Alatriel]

You just haven't tried being hostile to the right ones I guess...

You mean there are "right" dark elves to be hostile to?  I thought that was across the board?  

[lonnarin]

Heheh...  Yeah, if Darilith was a female, Gloom would be in love.  He's got a foreboding aura of evil that rivals most child murderers.

I made Rakish way back in the ways of V2 when Hlint would routinely have 4-5 CG dark elves all singing Azattan hymns in the streets, trying to offset that whole stereotype of every adventuring dark elf must be good.  Too bad I horribly botched his build, the Dread Pirate was fun to play.  Gloom I made for much the same reason, people just seem way to complacent with deep dwarves for landlords.  CG people living in Haft Lake, not making a single move against Rael at all, as he's executing emaciated deep gnomes in town square.  Gloom serves as an arrogant boasting lightning rod for all that hate, a reminder that his race is very much the embodiment of tyranny.

I kind of wish CE was allowed, since I think that much of the reason people diss dark elves is because we mechanically limit the extent of dark elf-ness they can achieve before warning them about yanking the character away.  The above sentiments of locking them up for life should they slip up in keeping incognito further makes RPing them a literal rock and a hard place.  On the one hand you have to limit the chaos factor of your evil character, lest they take it away from you.  If you started as CN, the most common alignment dark elves start with, then you almost strive to be good, because if you get to evil they take it away from you.  And if you try to make friends, then everybody knows what you are, and they arrest you for months in a cell and potentially take it away from you.  And then you can't even properly remain incognito for long, because somebody decides that you look darker than Mith because of what the server status page says.  It's pretty difficult RPing on such a narrow tightrope, slip to much either way, left right, up down, and it's kaput.  Then you have people critiquing that you're not playing a "proper" dark elf... well, proper dark elves are CE!   My hats off to people who manage to get by this, its not easy at all.

As for those who critique the way other monstrous races are played, I suggest they make their own character of said race and serve an example.  If you see a trend of dark elves who dont fit your mold, or goblins or deep dwarves, wemics, orcs etc... then make one and show them how its done.

[Hellblazer]

I'm all for making monstrous folks incognito, but just make certain not to metagame knowledge of somebody's race because it pops up on the server status page.

 
 Eh I got to agree with you there totally. It happened to me recently. Funny thing is that there is a few races thave have red eyes, and yet the person was able to pinpoint Fehrial race straight up. Or people image physical diformity for him that he clearly doesn't have (even if it is clearly indicated in the pc info card). That is usually a minor inconvenience but can get frustrating with time, I have no doubt about that.
 
 I think you are right that the races should also be taken out of the server status page.

[Interia_Discordius]

Mmm... off note, dark elves are usually NE than CE. They do have to work together to some extent, after all.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

The problem is not what information does and doesn't show on Server Status. The problem isn't that the info, with a quick search of the Character Approvals board, is all at a person's fingertips.

The problem is bad players[/b] metagaming the knowledge, suspicion, etc.

The point of this thread shouldn't be "Oh, remove the temptation from those who succumb!" It should be "Don't succumb."

[Alatriel]

Yes, but once you've been burned by a dark elf, any time you see somoene of elven build covered completely from head to toe... there's all the suspicion you need.  Generally elves don't do that.

[geloooo]

The helmets are hideous so I chose the hood! :p Yeah, I've noticed quite a trend with the metagaming, when meeting a new character they immediately do a spot check on me, but not on my other hooded friends. Sometimes even doing a spot check on me while having barkskin :|

[Interia_Discordius]

I want spot checks made on me Llane is covered head to toe at all times, though her hood keeps her features more or less clear... she uses the hood like someone would use a hoodie, more or less.

[lonnarin]

The helmets are hideous so I chose the hood! :p Yeah, I've noticed quite a trend with the metagaming, when meeting a new character they immediately do a spot check on me, but not on my other hooded friends. Sometimes even doing a spot check on me while having barkskin :|

Whenever somebody does a spot check on you with barkskin, tell them they have just identified a Wood Elf! *cackles*

[Alatriel]

The helmets are hideous so I chose the hood! :p Yeah, I've noticed quite a trend with the metagaming, when meeting a new character they immediately do a spot check on me, but not on my other hooded friends. Sometimes even doing a spot check on me while having barkskin :|

I don't generally do spot checks on hooded humans because... they're just too big to be a dark elf.  However... I'm waiting for the day when I'm proven wrong!

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

From now on I'm spot checking everyone ...  even their reflections  >.<

[Interia_Discordius]

Well, not all humans are too big to be dark elves. I honestly wish we could see our chosen height differences or that people put that in their bio because... I played a human before I left once in Layonara, and she was only 5'2''. I don't know off the top of my head the maximum height for a dark elf, but that's not -that- big of a difference, ya'know?


Edit: And really, I don't think a spot check is necessary to make sure... I personally ask in OOC if the hood can be seen through, and if it can't, I'd probably just keep my own distance. That's kind of weird regardless of race.

[lonnarin]

I wouldn't trust the in-game character heights and dimensions all that much.  Humans span from 3 to 8 feet tall on Monday Night Raw.  Big Show or Kahli would easily pass for half-giant, and Hornswoggle might as well be Willy.  Sadly, NWN forces us to to conform to one racial height, and either fat or skinny.  If somebody made a fat dark elf, he'd look more like my uncle Ron, around 5'6" with a beer belly.  My old buddy Hrothgar was 7' tall in game, but he was still mechanically shorter than half-orcs who are around 6'4" on average.

For example.. Rak and Kor are mechanically shorter than half orcs and humans!  NWN made orcs way too short, and then you cross breed them with humans and the half-orcs gain more than a foot in height.  Just doesnt add up.

Half Orcs and Half Elves should really be able to pass for humans as well.  Not all of them have very pronounced pointed ears or tusks.  (in fact it specifically says in the D&D handbook that they can pass for ugly humans)  You remember that guy who was in The Hills Have Eyes and Weird Science?  Michael Berryman, with the mis-shaped head and ears that stuck out.  He was also in Devil's rejects too... made a career on being one of the ugliest guys on camera.  He I could see could be mistaken for a half-orc.

I wonder how many people got beaten down in Hempstead simply for being born too big and ugly, despite their fully human parentage?  And keep in mind this is in the Dark Ages of science, where people dont understand things like neurocysticfibrosis (elephant man's disease), birth defects, gigantism and dwarfism.  Could a dwarf with gigantism pass for a human?  And a halfling child pass for Brownie?  Size is very variable, even without genetic conditions at play.


NO HEMPSTEAD FOR MICHAEL BERRYMAN!


LET ME INTO CITY!  AM HUMAN, JUST PITUITARY GLAND GO WRONG! ARGH!

[miltonyorkcastle]

What Interia suggests is generally the better route to go than a spot check. Good RP is RP that allows for communication both OOC and IC, and in which each player works with the rest to develop his/her character rather than using mechanics (like spot checks) to override player communication. As much as is possible, I suggest reserving checks for NPCs, with the exception being that the other player asks you to roll a check. Sure, someone could refuse, even when obvious, to admit some aspect of their character, but nine times out of ten, it's the other way around, with players being forced via unwanted mechanical checks to give some secret about their character that they'd prefer to be discovered via RP rather than through numbers. Roleplay vs. Rollplay.

[Alatriel]

What Interia suggests is generally the better route to go than a spot check. Good RP is RP that allows for communication both OOC and IC, and in which each player works with the rest to develop his/her character rather than using mechanics (like spot checks) to override player communication. As much as is possible, I suggest reserving checks for NPCs, with the exception being that the other player asks you to roll a check. Sure, someone could refuse, even when obvious, to admit some aspect of their character, but nine times out of ten, it's the other way around, with players being forced via unwanted mechanical checks to give some secret about their character that they'd prefer to be discovered via RP rather than through numbers. Roleplay vs. Rollplay.

Generally if I roll a spot check, I'll ask if someone is completely covered from head to toe, then the spot check is not necessarily to see if I notice skin, but if I notice that they are covered from head to toe.  And then generally they are not asked to unmask/unhood/etc themselves.  They're simply asked to show their forearm.  But the spot check is overall not used to discover them mechanically, it's more for my own character on how observant she is.  I figure if someone is covered from head to toe, they're covered completely, so just like you can roll a natural twenty to find gold... if there isn't any gold... um... I don't care how good you rolled, there is no gold.  So... I don't care how good your spot check is, if there isn't any skin showing, there isn't any skin showing.  

However... you may realize... "Hey... there's no skin showing!"  And then you take it from there.

And this could go for any race.

[Script Wrecked]

I guess it comes down to respecting other people's roleplay.

No one is given points for breaking another character's carefully crafted storyline.

It's no one's job to out anyone.

There should be no preemptive peeking under hoods.

That only comes after they've done something wrong, you've chased them halfway across Layonara, fought hand-to-hand on the rope bridge swaying over the chasm, wrestled them to the ground, and have uttered the immortal lines, "now we get to see who you really are..."

*respect*

Regards,

Script Wrecked.

[Interia_Discordius]

Beautifully worded, Script Wrecked. That just summed up my entire true view of the hood deal.

[Lynn1020]

The problem is bad players metagaming the knowledge, suspicion, etc.

I don't think it should be called bad players. I don't think anyone has the right to call another that. Yes there is a lot that metagame and some just get more upset over than others.  Many are still learning the ropes. Often a polite tell helps out.

But I don't think there is any way a hood is going to hide someones whole face. That is only a game mechanics that hides the face.  I don't even see how a helmet would even hide the color of someone skin.  You see their eyelids so your going to see the color of them.  

Also I think there is more tolerance in dark elf since there is one that is high standing in the world of Layo and often sitting uncovered out on the benches of Hempstead.  Nothing against the character or the player.  But if one can prove themselves to be worthy shouldn't others be able to prove themselves.    If all dark elves should be killed on sight.. What if someone that has never been to Hempstead before walks in and sees that dark elf standing say in Hempstead fields and they try to kill her.. what would happen?

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

I don't think it should be called bad players. I don't think anyone has the right to call another that. Yes there is a lot that metagame and some just get more upset over than others.  Many are still learning the ropes. Often a polite tell helps out.

You're quite right about folks who are new, and simply don't know. There's no reason to be harsh with folks unaccustomed to and unaware of some of the more difficult-to-separate streams of information that come in.

But when folks that should and do know better continue to metagame, that is where they become (at least in that respect) bad players.

But I don't think there is any way a hood is going to hide someones whole face. That is only a game mechanics that hides the face.  I don't even see how a helmet would even hide the color of someone skin.  You see their eyelids so your going to see the color of them.  

Again, you're quite right about hoods - as has been mentioned before. My Thanks actually speak quite clearly about my opinions on posts. A helm, well... That depends on the type of helm, the angle of the light, and innumerable other things. And goggles still beat that out. But! As has been mentioned before respecting another's RP is tantamount. A Tell saying "Hey, is any skin exposed?" or somesuch is a wonderful way to open up avenues for RP without maynardism.

Also I think there is more tolerance in dark elf since there is one that is high standing in the world of Layo and often sitting uncovered out on the benches of Hempstead.

NO. NO NO NO a thousand times NO. With respect to Alantha, I really feel that that character should never be in Hempstead with exposed skin, unless she felt like inciting a riot. Because that is what would happen. I don't care how powerful or well-known a given Dark Elf is - Joe Commoner knows for a fact (and a well-informed fact, at that) that Dark Elves are EVIL. He doesn't care what it's name is, how shapely it may be, and so forth... It's a Dark Elf, and it's going to kill him and his family. He is going to run away, screaming - all the more, if he knows that that Dark Elf is so powerful, she's invented her own spells. This is PRECISELY why there are laws against monstrous races entering the city, for all that the city's governance knows that there may be one or two individuals who aren't blackhearted murderers who will eat your children and animate their bones.

Nothing against the character or the player.  But if one can prove themselves to be worthy shouldn't others be able to prove themselves.

No. I don't care how Epic Alantha (or any other well-known "goodie" Dark Elf) is, not a single one has truly proven him or herself "worthy" in the eyes of Joe Commoner - because Dark Elves are monsters.

If all dark elves should be killed on sight.. What if someone that has never been to Hempstead before walks in and sees that dark elf standing say in Hempstead fields and they try to kill her.. what would happen?

I would applaud that person's RP of fear and hatred of Dark Elves. He'd probably get killed, and a large number of PCs would despise him for (cue sarcasm)attacking someone obviously so well-loved (end sarcasm).

I have said it before, and will likely be saying it again in six months, when this thread pops up again... The problems very rarely stem from the actions of the Dark Elven players themselves, but rather from the players reacting to them (and the NPCs NOT reacting to them).

Note: This post contains over-emphasis on a few points, for clarity's sake. I've got nothing against Alantha, Dark Elves in general, or folk who do their best to not metagame. And most especially Lynn, for adding to the discussion and giving me something to respond to! Please continue.

[Script Wrecked]

Just to consider the other side of the coin, I think one of the motivating factors for preemptive peeking is that no-one likes to be duped, hood-winked, and/or have the-wool-pulled-over-their-eyes, in Real Life, or in-game.

[INDENT]"What, there was a dark-elf next to you all that time and you didn't even notice?" *incredulous*[/INDENT]

Well, I don't think there is any getting around that. However, no-one really thinks you're a dummy (or your character). Everyone knows that this character is really a dark-elf/goblin/other-undesirable-race. Heck, they've probably chosen a portrait and/or soundset to that effect. So, you know they're what they are, and they know that you know, and you know what, they know that you know and (probably) appreciate that you aren't meta-ing their character.

To me, it is a small price to pay to facilitate their story, to enable their fun. That's what's it's all about, isn't it? It is your gift to them, and to the greater roleplay on this server.

And just think, (as and) when their character is finally revealed, your character gets to do outrage like they're going for an Oscar.

Regards,

Script Wrecked.