Question re: Economy of Layo, and Selling Used Weaponry

[Riven]

Request permission to sell USED weaponry at less than 20% off the price of a new weapon.

Riven and Slip are wanting to go into business as the Saddlebag Pawn Shop – buying and selling used weaponry (and only used weaponry). Used weapons are worth less than new, as they may have struck trees or mining boulders accidentally, and could be one strike away from breaking. Therefore, we wish to buy them, like the pawn shops in cities do, at a low price (we’ll pay roughly twice what the other pawn shops do), and sell them for maybe 25% - 50% off the Lens price of a new weapon, depending on how the numbers come out.

I already sold a couple, before seeing a post that encourages all to sell at the standard price, or no more than 20% off if RP warrants it. But I think used weaponry is worth less than new, and should be sold at less, because it could break. The shop would offer no guarantees of not breaking at the first accidental strike of a tree.

Let me know what you think! And if it would be okay for the economy of Layo.

Thanks!

[Eight-Bit]

There is no system that actually makes any item any less durable than any other. Because of this and the fact that there would be no reason not to buy the same item  from you for much, much less than any other person. Therefore you will have an unfair advantage until everyone decides to sell "used" items as well. If my opinion matters, this would be just damaging to everyone else.

[Riven]

I was told that weapons break after ten or so hits of a tree or mineable ore. You can use a miner's pick on ore, but if you use a sword, the sword will break after ten hits.

Is this not true?

Edit: I meant that sometimes one "accidentally" hits a tree with a sword.

[Black Cat]

Yes, it is. But no one in his right mind would use a weapon to mine or chop trees. There are speciality tools for such a task.

[Riven]

I've purchased weapons from a guild, that said they generally did not buy used weapons back, because people accidentally hit trees with their swords. And I have, on occasion, accidentally hit trees with my equipped weapon. I'm much more careful now though! lol

[merlin34baseball]

Ive bought used weapons from a guild and was specifically told it was used and therefore got a cheaper price.
 
 Don't know if that helps or not...:\

[vgn]

The problem is the vast majority of weaponry that is "used" has never struck any of the things that can damage it. Even if something has been struck it tends to only happen once or twice before that player learns to be much more careful.

Combine that with the fact that there is no perceptible way to tell how damaged, if at all, a weapon actually is, then it's impossible to come up with fair pricing. Going on the assumption that a weapon is worse than it might be is faulty given what we know to be truth from my first statement. So reducing prices for "used" but equivalent to "new" weapons is just going to undermine any current guilds or attempts at making the layo economy not as broken as it is.

Considering the economy as it is now and the number of times degradable equipment comes up, I'm pretty sure this will be addressed in the next layo and a business like this might do very well.

[mixafix]

dont see how such a thing could be fair to the economy, selling off worn swords to the pawn shops etc temple donations is the only rp way out currently

[s0ulz]

Since a weapon that's hit CNR does equal damage to a weapon that hasn't hit any CNR at all, it's primary abilities remain and there really isn't a good reason to deduct any price.

It could work the other way around, if crafters tie stories to the weapons they sell. So a weapon that's been in the hands of great heroes might increase in value by "being used".

[Jaigan]

{{Exploit Removed}}

[Dorganath]

Jaigan,

Please use better judgment in the future before posting exploits and ways around the system. That is 100% contrary to the spirit and rules of the server.

Thank you.

[Jaigan]

Dorgy could have said "No Jaigan in case you didn't know that's considered an exploit. Please don't do it, thanks".
 
 Followed by deleting my post.
 
 Instead you you make me out to be some sort of vetern NWN hacker terrorizing your game. I suspose using that method to fix blank stats on items is also an exploit? In anycase your reply is rather offensive to my carebear feelings  and not everyone is as well informed about the game as you.
 
 But hey sorry for being ignorant, and not thinking in a malicious manner before posting.

[Dorganath]

@Jaigan:

I don't know if you're serious or not, so I'll go on the assumption that you are.

I no way was I trying to imply that you were some "veteran NWN hacker" or that you were terrorizing anything.  I simply asked you to use better judgment before posting, and indeed, before using such "techniques" that can and do exploit our mechanics.

To your question, using a known game mechanics to fix a bug is perfectly acceptable.  However, using one game mechanic to get around another is clearly exploitive, and that is the issue with which I took exception. There's a very important distinction between the question you just asked and your prior suggestion, which I have removed from your post.

I am sorry if you were offended.  That was not my intent.  Yet at the same time, I have spent more hours than I care to count patching up our systems and/or making them more difficult to use for everyone else because somebody thought it would be "cool" to push things beyond the spirit and intent of those systems.  

Perhaps that was not your intent.  Perhaps you didn't even consider that using one mechanic to get around another would in any way be considered an exploit.  If so, then I guess I have no further comment.  Though the way you presented it suggested that you not only knew that it would get around the limits we have put in place for good reasons, namely other players exploiting CNR harvesting, but also that you were doing it as a matter of course.  

So no, I don't think you're some NWN hacker, but I do think you acted, in this case, in a manner that is contrary to the spirit and rules of the server.   Other than this single incident, I don't have anything else to criticize, and if we can shake hands with a "lesson learned" here, then this too will fade away.

If you want to discuss this further, let's take it to PMs, as there's no need to clutter this thread further.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Ah, text, that most confusing of mediums... Emotions often don't cross right, and never is a post that is not needlessly elaborate truly clear in its intent.

In any case...

For the used weaponry... If it were affected mechanically by how long it's been used, sure! That'd be a great idea! But... Sadly, it's not. An iron rapier that's been used for twenty years in-game is just the same as one that's fresh out of the tempering tub.

Another of NWN's limitations showing its head, unfortunately.

Something like this for next-gen might be awesome, though!

[EdTheKet]

For the used weaponry... If it were affected mechanically by how long it's been used, sure! That'd be a great idea! But... Sadly, it's not. An iron rapier that's been used for twenty years in-game is just the same as one that's fresh out of the tempering tub.

Correct, so if we go back to the question at hand:

Request permission to sell USED weaponry at less than 20% off the price of a new weapon

Then I would say no. Because a weapon that has been used (by accident or not) on some CNR harvestable, has no reduced damage properties and is not otherwise inferior to a freshly made weapon.

Please note that weapons do not deteriorate or use their damage capabilities when used in combat.

[Riven]

Hi all,
Thanks for all the feedback and perspectives.
So it seems the information I received at a guild (that a weapon will break after ten strikes on a tree, etc., ) was incorrect?
If that is the case then you are absolutely right, used weapons should not be sold for less.

Can I operate a pawn shop that purchases weaponry at a reduced price, in order to make a profit by selling the weapons at normal price (or up to 20% off, if I understand the layo rules on this)?

thanks for everyone's feedback!

[Dorganath]

So it seems the information I received at a guild (that a weapon will break after ten strikes on a tree, etc., ) was incorrect?

Um...no.  It is absolutely correct.  The thing is that one should not strike CNR with regular weapons, so for most people, whether it did hit CNR never or 9 times, it won't matter.

[lonnarin]

One sense where one could offer a discount for "used" gear is if it was heavily and meticulously customized into another form that would be difficult to change it back from, or has odd enhancements on it that boost the lvl req.  (like if a female elf sold a skimpy hotpants suit to a fellow male rogue who needed to change the look drastically to avoid being scoffed)

Of course, one could just simply note in game that yes, the sword was used for a long time, and roleplay that it was used before by another owner, and even set a lower price on it.  Just because game mechanics don't alter the effectiveness of an item doesn't make it any less used.  Just look at all the perfectly good external harddrives or DVD Drives on the Best Buy shelf that have only been used once, returned, restocked and discounted.  Things don't need to be of lesser quality in real life to qualify as used, so the same should stand in a game where one plays the role of a merchant selling used gear.  Maybe you loved the item deeply and wish to see it go to a worthy wielder, in that case one might discount the price specifically for them.

So was the item used before?  Yes?  Then it really doesn't matter that it's as effective as new, it's still used.  Anytime I send a mint condition display model of some item from the store, there's a 50% chance that the buyer complains, why should it be any different in roleplaying, when one assumes a similar role?  Game mechanics are all OOC.  That platemail might have retained its vigor, but it doesnt smell any less like 30 years of dwarf sweat and grime.

[EdTheKet]

Well, you can argue whichever way you like, with reasons on why something would actually be worn and hence worth less. However, basically it boils down to this: we ask not to sell below a certain % of the price that the lens specifies.

Can I operate a pawn shop that purchases weaponry at a reduced price, in order to make a profit by selling the weapons at normal price (or up to 20% off, if I understand the layo rules on this)?

Yes.

[Pseudonym]

Hope Riven doesn't mind me popping a question of my own onto the end of his thread.

In RL I am a fan of a laissez faire style economy but would rather err on the side of caution (and transparency) here and just ask. What would be a reasonable interest rate for one PC to loan true to another in an arm's length transaction?