Poison Crafting Suggestion

[Eight-Bit]

Let's face it. It's 2rd on the list of the most useless trades. Below only fishing. As it is right now, you do excessive amounts of gathering for little actual payoff. The system itself has a lot of potential. It is a means for the less-than-good characters to come to the same ends as the goodie-two-shoes, but in their own way. It will add a layer to the weak and nearly non-existant underworld, and I believe give life to this trade.  

There are three lacking qualities in the poison crafting system: duration, style, and diversity. The poison when applied to weapons lasts for about 12 seconds. Two rounds. That is enough to get one hit in. And considering the fact that most enemies that of most enemies that could fail the poison save, or let alone, not be totally immune to it, will die faster to you if you did not waste your time applying the poison. The lack of diversity of poisons is obvious. There are certain poisons that come from certain types of creatures. The creatures themselves are fine. But the lack of diverse poisons leaves us with one few constitution damage poisons, and I believe only one or two dexterity damage ones. In most cases the 1d2 Strength Damage is pointless with the fort save. Espically when the rogue feat Crippling Strike is factored into it.

DIVERSITY

My suggestion is a simple one; to change it to 7 tiers and keep the poison reagents the same, but change the way it is made. For example, the system I had in mind would factor in two other trades, Enchanting and Alchemy.

The poison will be divided by DC, starting at DC 14 and moving up and finally ending at highest in NWN, DC 26. The three types of poisons that are already in game are Dexterity, Constitution, and Strength.

To begin, the basic idea would use "Essense" of the correct stat, created by an Alchemist. For the DC 14 Strength Poison, you would need an Essense of Strength, etc.

The basic reagents would be...

Poison.
Essense of correct type.
Flask.

I believe that poisons should be divided like this:

DC 14 - Small Spider
DC 16 - Giant Spider
DC 18 - Phase Spider
DC 20 - Dire Spider
DC 22 - Bebilith
DC 24 - Spider Queen
DC 26 - Bastard Sword Spider

This makes a total of twenty one poisons, of three different flavors, and seven different strengths. But, this is not where I believe it should end. The permanent poisons were a very good idea. But the method in which they were applied to weapons was not. Anything could be made into a poison weapon, and they would sell for a lot of gold. But, because of this, I believe that pre-poisoned craftable weapons should be allowed. The weapon types should be limited. I believe that Daggers, Shortswords, Darts, and Rapiers should be the only weapons for now. (Any other ideas?) This makes for a total of 48 weapons.

The poisons would be in four different strengths, on the three types of metals with enhancement bonuses (Iron, Ada, Mithral): Mild (DC 14), Average (DC 18), Strong (DC 22), and Deadly (DC 24). They basic reagents would be...

(5) Poison (Of the correct type, and DC).
Enchanting Oil.
Crystal Rod (1-4)
Weapon.
Gem enchanted with matching stat. (Alexandrite for Mild and Average. Diamond for Strong. Emerald for Deadly.)

The Poisons needed for this would be:

DC 14 = Dire Spider
DC 18 = Bebilith
DC 22 = Queen Spider
DC 24 = Bastard Sword Spider

The weapons would have the same alignment restrictions as the Poison Tool (True Neutral, Chaotic Neutral, and Evil Alignments.)

DURATION

The duration of the current poisons makes them nearly useless. I believe that thirty seconds (five rounds) or even sixty would be best. The reasons being that you are removed from stealth while you apply a poison. The second being the distance you have to travel, and the time you wait to attack. By the time you get to your target, you have either already been discovered and loose the element of suprise, or the poison has already faded from your weapon. When you consider the dexterity required to apply poisons with success, it would not give fighters an extra edge, unless they invested HEAVILY in their dexterity. And because of that, they would deal less damage per hit when compared to your average strength-based fighter.

STYLE

Poison crafting should be illegal, and the use should be punished by in game officials. The crafting stations should be hidden in shady places. Such as the back of Temples of Banderback, sewer rooms (the chessboard area in Hlint's undercity is perfect...), and other places where it would fit. As of right now it seems to be an almost acceptable practice. This minor change would add more thrill to a dull and meaningless craft.

I have thought long and considered this request ever since the perm poisons were removed. I think this trade has a lot going for it, but it has not yet been realised. Thank you for your time. Also, I would like it for this post to NOT dissolve into a thread about who should and should not use poisons.

[Cp_Winddancer]

I like your Idea and I agree with you because I would love to be using poison bolts.  However, the reason that L does not currectly have perm. poison is to prevent abuse by players(from a post I saw a while back).  Both sides have a good arguement in my opinion, but we will have to see.  Also keep in mind that even if approved it will take Orth a lot of time to implement it and from what I have heard and the little I have seen of him he is very very busy RL right now.

[Eight-Bit]

Cp_Winddancer - 3/9/2005  11:56 PM

I like your Idea and I agree with you because I would love to be using poison bolts.  However, the reason that L does not currectly have perm. poison is to prevent abuse by players(from a post I saw a while back).  Both sides have a good arguement in my opinion, but we will have to see.  Also keep in mind that even if approved it will take Orth a lot of time to implement it and from what I have heard and the little I have seen of him he is very very busy RL right now.

The abuse was addressed by this statement, but let me elaborate...

The permanent poisons were a very good idea. But the method in which they were applied to weapons was not. Anything could be made into a poison weapon, and they would sell for a lot of gold. But, because of this, I believe that pre-poisoned craftable weapons should be allowed. The weapon types should be limited. I believe that Daggers, Shortswords, Darts, and Rapiers should be the only weapons for now. (Any other ideas?) This makes for a total of 48 weapons.

Having pre-created weapons means that the level requirement is high enough that low level character's can't make use of it, it is alignment restricted so that people cannot break their alignment, and difficult to make so they cannot be added to skinning knives or other low cost items and sold for massive profits. If that is my understanding, the alignment and the profits were the abuse on the players' part.

[Leanthar]

8bit.  You are saying (if I read this correctly) that only some daggers, swords etc. can have poison applied... but if you use other daggers, swords etc. they can not.  How does this work, it does not seem immersive--it seems arbitrary (almost to the extreme).  Perhaps I read this wrong.. please explain.
  Also, we tried a while ago to restrict by alignment and it was pretty much split down the middle of support and non-support of why that should happen.  And I think for the most part (now at least) that people do not view poison as evil... strangely.

[Kethryc]

I think its a great idea, something that would enhance a growing sector of PCs and would add intrigue and capability.   The alignment restrctions are a must, and I think a lot of people would benifit RP wise as well as character developement.  8bit has a really good idea on how to layer it all out, it would take a bit, but I think it would be worth it.

Keth

[Eight-Bit]

Leanthar - 3/10/2005  12:08 AM

8bit.  You are saying (if I read this correctly) that only some daggers, swords etc. can have poison applied... but if you use other daggers, swords etc. they can not.  How does this work, it does not seem immersive--it seems arbitrary (almost to the extreme).  Perhaps I read this wrong.. please explain.

The poisons with a duration can, and should be applied to anything that they are able to be. The perm poisons, however, I believe should be limited just because of the orginal abuse with the last time they were in the game. Having to be enchanted onto a specific type of weapon (much like how we enchanted weapons with elemental damage in beta 4...) prevents certain types of abuse, the biggest being taking advantage of the high level requirement and thus value of poison weapons.

A skinning knife with DC 14 1d2 strength poison had a level 10 requirement, and would sell for almost 500 gold at a large pawn shop.

The reason I suggested only certain weapon types be able to have poison applied are, quite simply, to keep the bulk down. Each weapon type added increases the total number of perm poison weapons in the resources by 12. That eventually adds up. A dynamic system, based off of what was used the last time would make the most logistical sense, but it would allow the stronger poisons to be used earlier. This espically gives Clerics and others with GMW the edge.

[Eight-Bit]

Leanthar - 3/10/2005  12:08 AM  Also, we tried a while ago to restrict by alignment and it was pretty much split down the middle of support and non-support of why that should happen.  And I think for the most part (now at least) that people do not view poison as evil... strangely.

 The alignment restrictions are required. Poison is not a GOOD thing. It is not pure evil either. It is a means to an ends, and subject to certain types of people to examine before they make use of it. Law-fearing (or respecting..) characters would not use it. I believe that it should just be illegal, and punished. Thus good characters would not use it. Morality and law come into play.   (And, by the way, I will always agree with yer final say. Just putting my views out there.)

[Leanthar]

Hmm... maybe I am missing something.
  "...A dynamic system, based off of what was used the last time would make the most logistical sense, but it would allow the stronger poisons to be used earlier. This espically gives Clerics and others with GMW the edge..."
  These people should NEVER, EVER have the advantage.. they are already the ones that tip the scale of imbalance in a HUGE way..... What am I missing, or did I missunderstand?

[Eight-Bit]

You misunderstood, but I did not word it exactly how I wanted. I ment that it would give them an advantage, and that is a negative thing.

[Talan Va'lash]

Permanant poison added like an elemental rod would be cool (along with other on-hit effects.) But as they would stack with elemental enchantments they would be pretty powerful.  They would also likely raise the level req substantially, hopefully enough to balance them.  If they were made like elemental rods now work, I would think it would be more difficult to make them only work for certain weapon types than making them work for everything.

I think the main reason using a poisoned weapon is not viewed as particularly evil, is that if you are attacking, giants for instance, it doesn't seem much more evil to attack them with a poisoned weapon than attack them with any other weapon with intent to kill them.

[Eight-Bit]

Talan Va'lash - 3/10/2005  12:43 AM

Permanant poison added like an elemental rod would be cool (along with other on-hit effects.) But as they would stack with elemental enchantments they would be pretty powerful.  They would also likely raise the level req substantially, hopefully enough to balance them.  If they were made like elemental rods now work, I would think it would be more difficult to make them only work for certain weapon types than making them work for everything.

I think the main reason using a poisoned weapon is not viewed as particularly evil, is that if you are attacking, giants for instance, it doesn't seem much more evil to attack them with a poisoned weapon than attack them with any other weapon with intent to kill them.

That is how they used to work. And the lowest poison strength (DC 14) made a base property-free dagger a level 10 item.

[tom bombadill]

could certian fish have a poison that would cause a partial paralysis, which translates into a spell faliure percentage, like taunt will cuase a 30 %  chance of spell faluire. that would make both crafts more interesting as well.

[Talan Va'lash]

Bombadill: Well, if youre hitting someone with a melee weapon, you're already likely to disrupt their spell, if they are casting.  Besides, you can't give an added chance of spell failure as an on hit on a weapon in the toolset.

8-bit: Are all the DCs you listed in your initial post options in the toolset?  I think 12 is the lowest option, not sure if they go up by 2's.  I'll check when I get the chance.

If this idea is adopted and poisons remain non-good (which they probably should... Pallys of toran shouldnt be going around with poisoned holy swords lol) I think an option for good alignments should be implemented at the same time.  There are so many fun on hits in the toolset, daze and stun two of the most likely for good alignments.

[D Blaze]

A thought for this:
All normal poisons have a time limit, or a limited number of uses and only kick in on actual damage
Example:
A rogue has a poison they place on a blade, it will work for a set number of hits, say 6 poison charges, or a couple of hours gametime before it loses potency

The rogue snoops around for a bit, weapon at the ready, and poison ready and waiting on the blade, and come upon a creature
*swing, hit and damages*
Poison effect kicks in on the creature, and you now have 5 uses left
*swing, miss*
Poison is unused, 5 left
*swing, hit, but no damage*
Couldn't get a telling blow, and some of the poison rubs off the blade, so 4 uses left
*swing, hit and damages*
More poison is introduced to the creature's system and takes effect again, leaving 3 uses left

and so forth and so on....

The time and uses is a fixed number for all, but the power and affect on hit is varied and stronger based on the poison used, and charges cannot be stacked on a weapon since there is only so much space on the bladed surface. No triple poisoning a blade for 18 charges, hasting, truestriking, then rushing in to an army hamstringing them all inside a few moments. Poison is powerful, but still delicate and is an assassin's best friend. It is meant for only a handful of targets.
Now, if a veritable army of rogues pop up with poisoned blades, they might just be able to suprise a large force, but not many would be willing to follow such a path.

A vial of poison carries enough poison for one weapon, and it is completely used on any weapon to coat the edges and sharp points
A dagger or spear might hold 2 charges (but most rogues use weapon finesse)
arrows,bolts and darts would have poison for each missle in the cluster (but you deal little damage to the larger beings, so you sacrifice melee for the better chance to poison something. and ranged focus here)
A short sword may have 4 charges (long edge)
a long sword may get the 5 charges (longer edge, no longer using finesse, but brute force to hack)
an axe would get 1-2 charges (high damage near guarentees poison, and the swing keeps from using it with any finesse to save poison for future attacks)
Nothing should get more than 6 charges

Only weapons that deal pierce or slash damage can carry poison.

As for perma-poison, nothing is permanently poisonable. Poison can only last so long exposed to the open air before it dries out and weakens. Scorpions have only so much venom before their stingers lose their use and must metabolize more, same with spiders and most other living creatures. As for the undead, that is more in the area of disease and curses, not really poison.

Thoughts?

[Thunder Pants]

it's not possible with the toolset to give poison like you stated, just a simple fact

[nabokov9]

i like the idea set forth by EightBit - lots of thought and work there  

just as a purely philosophical point, i don't view poison in this system as evil - i think that the term 'poison' has us all equating it with evil because in our minds it's something that is used against other people - but clearly in this server, thats not possible.  therefore, doesn't it seem then like any other enhancement - we add electrical, fire, or frost enhancements to weapons, which are initially made from CNR (the glass rods) like poison, we cast darkfire (or other spells) on our weapons to give them extra punch, and so forth.  

traditionally, yes, poison is a sneaky, dangerous substance employed by those of questionable alignment/values, but here, with a flourishing and legal rogue class, isn't it just another CNR based enhancement?

just thinking out loud....

[pulindar]

well in my opinion shich holds little water as im new here
Poison definitely needs to become more useful as a class but i also feel that it should be more limited.  make it something that can be nice for people who use it alot but so that others can't.  
Poison is sneaky even in its description its sneaky.  that means that its closer to caotic than lawful lawful people may hire others to use it if their evil but they probably wouldn't use it themselves.  dwarfs, which happens to be my favoite race, probably shouldn't use it but im not sure if you should cut them out completely do to what people might RP with them. what i do think is that any worshippers of say Dorand, one of the only two Gods i've really looked up, shouldn't be able to use it and other gods should have the same restrictions pretty much any good or lawful, but thats my opinion not others.  

but back to power i like D blazes idea and feel its to bad that it won't work.  The perma poison blades as an enchanment i think should because while poison might wear off a magical enchantment of it wont as for what the ingredients should be i haven't been here long enough to get a good idea of that.  longer times should definitly be there since we can't go by how many times its used poison is meant to be put on then to sneak up and use it.  
btw i like the idea of putting the poison places in secret spots but not to hard to find and to make it illegal for the authorities.  also if you know someone who has a reputationn for making poison you should sorta treat them as evil, any on the trade stats have that reputation
i don't remember what else was said to much so i wont say any more in this post i might say something later feel fre to say what you want about what i said

[Leanthar]

Yeah, I tend to agree with 8bit (on a good part of what he stated) now that I have seen his replies to my concerns and rereading it a few times.  When we have some time I will take a look at this again and perhaps do an overhaul in this general direction--with a few exceptions.

[ZeroVega]

  Alright, I'm going to chime in here...
    Bit said something to the effect of wanting longer durrations, perhaps 60 seconds would be nice (bout how long your average haste spell lasts). I like that idea.
    He also said something about wanting to add more the the poison making process. Needing essences to craft poisons depending on what poison you want to craft. (Essence of Strength for strength effecting poisons ect...) That also sounded good.
    He also said something about bringing back permanent poisons but setting an alignment limmit to them. TN, CN, Any Evil. And making them only be able to be applied to certain weapons.
    I believe his Cleric comment was geared towards, most Clerics are LN, CG, NG, or LG, so this would be something to keep clerics from gaining yet another edge. Plus having poison only be appliable to short swords, daggers, kuris, ect... would also cut down the number of people who could use them. (Ie: Favored weapons of clerics would keep them in check, and what barbarian would haul around a kuri?) Again I think it's smart.
    I also would think that blunt weapons would not be allowed poison. (Clubs, hammers, staves ect...) That's just silly to be able to add it to them.

[Guardian 452]

On track comment:

I think something does indeed need to be done to Poisons even if it is only taking the durations and making them twice as long.