Combatants Vs. Magicians - Unfair Balance?

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

I was driving home from class today and a radio commercial for a Realtor came on, and a thought popped into by head, mostly spawned from thinking about how hard it is to raise money to buy a house, IG.

On Layonara, there seems to be an unfair balance between what a Combat Only Class can do by itself, and what a Magician Class can do by itself.   Now, I've never played as a magician before.  I can't seem to play/build/understand a Magician properly and that may say something about my (actual RL) character, but I prefer the simplicity of Combat.

I have seen characters like Tegan (Sorc) and Rhynn (Wiz) and Elohanna  (Wiz) and Quillem (Cleric) and Ozy (Bard) and Zergon (Wiz) and Kalin (Sorc) be able to unleash hell on monsters by themselves, while at the same time seen Characters Like Shar'har (Ranger), Steel (Fighter), Kinai (Rog), Shiff (Fighter), Valmara (Fighter), Pyyran (Rog), Tath (Barb) fail trying the same thing alone.

Now, as far as what I consider Combatant and Magician:

Combatant:
[LIST=1]

• Fighter
  
• Barbarian
  
• Paladin
[/B]

• Monk
  
• Ranger
  
• Rogue

Magician:
[LIST=1]

• Wizard
  
• Sorcerer
  
• Cleric
  
• Druid
  
• Bard

I believe that ordered them from most effective, to least effective (at least for me).

I'd like to hear what others have to say about this.  Whether they agree or disagree and why.  I might be out of line saying in believing this but this is only talking from what I've experienced.  I'd love to hear what others think, even if I'm wrong in the end.

[J-ser]

Rouge and Bard don't belong in either.

Cleric and Druid can be in both.

And, it seems to me that mages are the one with trouble, unless they have a nasty summon. They have one chance to kill all the badies, before they get rushed.

[Blackguy]

Well I dont disagree, but there is times where a figther is much more needed in "teamwork" with a what you call a magician.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

At different levels, different classes are more or less effective. At high levels, mages are almost universally more effective in terms of soloing. Of the "warrior" types, at those same levels, Monks are the most effective all around.

However, at low levels, those classes are almost universally "so weak it hurts."

The only class that's really a powerhouse all the way through would be Cleric, and even that depends on your domains.

At high levels, yes, Mage-types will destructify, while fighter-types will, not just fail, but get the #$(&# pwnzed out of them. In Solo.

In groups, the mechanics are VERY much altered. With certain mage types, you'll just see high-level battle going Thunderclap Wierd fighters mop up. But... Those aren't the most fun to play with. With other mages, though... Really, it depends heavily on spell choice. And party composition.

And I'm rambling.

[ycleption]

I guess what I don't agree with is the notion that this balance is "unfair." If you create a bard, you shouldn't expect to be able to solo hordes of bad guys, it's not what the class is about. Wizards can unleash utter destruction, but have their own limitations and require more thought to be able to play well. If you play a straight fighter, you can destroy things at low levels, and be more party-reliant at higher levels.
I think the whole class balance issue has been discussed to death in other threads.

The classes are not balanced, they never will be balanced, and there really shouldn't be a problem with this.

Every character has a role, even if the roles don't have equal solo ability. If you are really worried about it and can't have fun without having a powerful soloable character, then play the character that you think it "strongest" and have fun being a powerful. Otherwise, play the character you enjoy, accept your character's role in the game and have fun filling a slightly less powerful niche.

My 2 cents.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

If you are really worried about it and can't have fun without having a powerful soloable character, then play the character that you think it "strongest" and have fun being a powerful. Otherwise, play the character you enjoy, accept your character's role in the game and have fun filling a slightly less powerful niche.
My 2 cents.

Oh, and by the way.  I'm didn't write this to complain about anything, just to discuss the thought.  I don't mind my role as a Fighter IG.  And I don't need a God to run around as killing everything.  I've done that else where and in Normal NWN and it gets boring fast being able to kill things all alone.

Just wanted to hear what others thought.

[LynnJuniper]

I'm only going to speak for myself here Shiff Its true that Wizards may be able to unleash hell, as you say by themselves, but that soloing effort does require a bit of skill, tactics and ultimately knowing your spawns, which is something I refuse to take part of. I'm completley completley useless as a solo 'artist' (when it comes to things my level) because I have absolutely 0 skill or tolerance for it.

That said, I agree with you but I'm not sure anything can be done about it.

(Oh, and bards can't unleash hell or anything, simple fact)

[lonnarin]

The greatest power of all is the ability to form a tight-knit, well-balanced party at the drop of a hat.  You won't get that from any class, it's the personal power and connections of the player that make it happen.

Soloing is the last resort of the incredibly bored and anti-social.

[Pen N Popper]

You just need to find the monsters that your type of PC can solo.  (It helps if they drop gold.)

I have slowly been training myself on how to solo.  It wasn't until 500k into 15th level that I realized Bumblebee can solo some areas on central server.  An hour grinding in these areas yielded 7k XP and about 3k gold (along with an hours worth of interminable boredom).  He's a rogue/shadowdancer.

The other way to get riches (and XP) outside of your soloing areas is, obviously, to join groups.  The riches will normally be less since you have to split the gold, but the XP will be orders of magnitude greater.

All the classes have strengths/weaknesses.  We'll run into encounters that favor some and not all.

Good luck.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

That said, I agree with you but I'm not sure anything can be done about it.

Wasn't aiming at having anything done about it because thats what DnD is based on the different Roles of the Classes.  I was just commenting on how on Layo with the way the creatures are designed to dissuade us from Soloing, despite people still being able to, that Magicians have the upper hand.

Just to be redundant, I started this thread just to discuss.

=)

[Filatus]

Playing a lvl 25 wizard, I can only say one thing.

You fighters get all the fun.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Playing a lvl 25 wizard, I can only say one thing.

You fighters get all the fun.

How so?  I'd love to know why you think that?

[Blackguy]

Playing a lvl 25 wizard, I can only say one thing.

You fighters get all the fun.

I agree, I wish I was a fighter again, instead of a high level wizard. Its fun to be a fighter, not so fun to be a wizard.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

I agree, I wish I was a fighter again, instead of a high level wizard. Its fun to be a fighter, not so fun to be a wizard.

Why though?  I mean I love Shiff, but what makes him more fun then "Master Epic Wizard Man/Woman"?

[Filatus]

Playing both a fighter/bard and a wizard I enjoy the tactics behind melee'ing a lot more fun then using spells, where in the end it's just a matter of DC's and the right spells for the right creatures.

When travelling in a group, as a wizard you sometimes spend more than half your spells on warding your partymembers and after that, it's basically hasting the others and setting the encounter up as Pyrran mentioned with Thunderclap or other.

Personally I derive much more satisfaction from seeing those crits fly in melee, than seeing the epic erinyes roll a 1 on a save vs banishment. Bur maybe that's just me.

Sure, you can solo with a wizard, but in the end I find playing one outside quests less fulfilling than playing a melee oriented character (which is why the clerics get the best of both worlds).

But in the end, maybe it's just me.

[Interia_Discordius]

For soloing, being a rogue/fighter/SD as myself really isn't so bad. Dress up in heavy armor and put a shield on, summon my little buddy, buff up with what item spells I have, and in future levels of course put the shadow cloak spell thing up, and then dive into battle. I can handle a lot of Central and even some in East as long as a will check isn't involved, and honestly, if things get nasty, I have Hide in Plain Sight to run for cover and away if I need to...Although I don't use it for bonus sneak attacks when I'm soloing. That's just cheap.

All in all, classes are balanced to me. What a class can't do soloing, they make up for in other uses. I'd like to see a quest run smoothly without a good array of people and classes, and honestly, I'd say the rogue/bard/ranger types is very very helpful in quests (I might be biased!).

[s0ulz]

Playing a fighter at epic levels is oh so much fun. As a matter of fact it's always been fun.

First my life pretty much matters of my own actions. I can be buffed as much as possible but if I make a wrong move I die and so might my mates.

Second. In later levels and while soloing at lower, you get to incorporate some nifty tactics and literally have to be at your game all the time.

While I do admit, it does get boring from time to time, only point-clicking, that leaves time for some RP opportunities to flesh out RP moves in battle and such. Spells are awesome, but you can spice up your cleaving too.

And to add another point, a fighters usefulness begins to curve back up in the epics... since fewer things are left to solo.

At least that's what it is to me.

[lonnarin]

Clerics may get the best of both worlds, but Skalds truly have all the fun.

*sings for the party, heals them up, curses the opposing drow, deathwails them to dust, then hacks up the itty bitty dust particles with a dwarven waraxe and taunts them*

The best part is that some of the song DCs are based on total level too, so you can mix and match fighter/barbarian levels in between the bard/skald and still be just as scary.  Another big thanks to Dorganoth & team for making this PrC so bloody fun!

[Filatus]

Clerics may get the best of both worlds, but Skalds truly have all the fun.

*sings for the party, heals them up, curses the opposing drow, deathwails them to dust, then hacks up the itty bitty dust particles with a dwarven waraxe and taunts them*

The best part is that some of the song DCs are based on total level too, so you can mix and match fighter/barbarian levels in between the bard/skald and still be just as scary.  Another big thanks to Dorganoth & team for making this PrC so bloody fun!

Can't wait till the day I get that Prc.

[jrizz]

At low levels group play is a must (even for fighters folks). At high levels in the areas that high levels need to go, group play is a must. Now I will say that it is common to see a group of high level casters taking on areas without haveing any fighters with them. They have high level summons for that I have yet to see a group of fighter types trying to take on those same areas without the help of a caster.
A group of high level mages (Wiz and Sorc) can do any area they want. The reason you see mage groups is that there are a lot of them at high level and they dont for the most part have the deity issue.
A group of Clerics and Druids could do as well depending on domains. You dont see groups of clerics doing this due to the deity thing.
A group of high level bards (and skalds) can do any area they want.  I dont think there are enough high level Bards to make a "group".
A group of high level fighters could do well but they would have to do a LOT of item switching to deal with stun spells, death magic, and elemental attacks. Also they would have to rest a lot for healing and carry a ton of the highest level healing potions that can be made (which no one makes LOL).