Housing and Guilds

[Lilswanwillow]

monthly chest wipes?

limit homes to 2 rooms, of a certain size?

I have never and will never own a home, rent a home, or need chests outside of the bank chests.  Portals are nice, but usually unnessasary.

I think, its an argument: time for the team vs lag monster.  mayhaps the team can come to terms with the lag monster sometime without this, but people aren't policing themselves.  At all.  This is evident because of the restrictions placed under the new submissions, the extreme lag because of what people carry in thier inventories, the crud in thier homes...

something needs to be changed, but noone wants to change? how bout a complete wipe of the housing system.  Take it all away, and re-imburse gold for what the house and only the house cost.  PC's can only purchase and have one house, even as a co-owner. houses can only have 2 rooms. Each house can only hold 10 chests.

that MAY change a LOT. and then, people whom can't limit themselves won't have to.

and I don't care who gets mad at me for saying so

[Vyris]

I would be in favor of no player owned housing personaly. Perhaps once a person gains world leader status they could have a house customized to their liking, that would be kindof a cool reward.

If there were no player housing people would be encouraged to join trade guilds. If you want a room with some additional storage and access to a portal join a guild. In fact, guilds could become pretty powerfull organizations, just as they were in the time period that NwN is modeled after. There could also be religious organizations, like the brotherhood of Vorax for instance... etc.

I think it would be kinda neat. I own a house and I would be willing to give it up for a global system like that. Just give me a room and a 20 item chest and a 10 item wardrobe that both lock. As often as I actually spend time in my house that would be more than enough.

Vyris

[Strykr]

Lilswanwillow - 11/3/2006  2:42 PM

monthly chest wipes?

I have never and will never own a home, rent a home, or need chests outside of the bank chests.  Portals are nice, but usually unnessasary.

I think, its an argument: time for the team vs lag monster.  mayhaps the team can come to terms with the lag monster sometime without this, but people aren't policing themselves.  At all.  This is evident because of the restrictions placed under the new submissions, the extreme lag because of what people carry in thier inventories, the crud in thier homes...

something needs to be changed, but noone wants to change? how bout a complete wipe of the housing system.  Take it all away, and re-imburse gold for what the house and only the house cost.  PC's can only purchase and have one house, even as a co-owner. houses can only have 2 rooms. Each house can only hold 10 chests.

that MAY change a LOT. and then, people whom can't limit themselves won't have to.

and I don't care who gets mad at me for saying so

Why don't we just remove the whole CNR/crafting system as well?  Based on much of what you are saying, that is the real problem.  But if you are for that, I certainly hope you aren't using any magic gloves, rings, belts, etc.  Us crafters tend to need to acquire a fair amount of materials to avoid hundreds, if not thousands, of trips to the craft halls.  Food crafting for example.  We must gather corn in mass loads for corn oil, meal, flour and eggs.  In addition, say we wish to work on pies.  Well you need additional 6-8 units of fruit.  But are we going to gather only 6-8?  Probably not.  We may gather 6-8 of each fruit in our traveling adventures, perhaps a bit more if we happen to pass areas twice or other areas with similar fruits.  Then perhaps we are passing by areas that also have items of alchemaic nature.  So we gather those as well.  In the process of all this traveling we happen to encounter creatures/monsters and find equipment worth taking back to town to sell or donate.  Now our bags are getting very full.

Oh but wait, we happen to practice jewelry too.  I happen to be a wizard and I cannot mine metals.  Therefore I must pay someone to gather and smelt for me.  And we all know that metal is rather heavy, especially if you have only a carrying capacity of 116 lbs with magic jewelry on.  (Not including spells)  Thus because I am physically weak, I should stick to just one or 2 crafts, or none at all, because I can't physically carry the heavy stuff.  Take away our housing and chest then we are physically limited to natural and enhanced strength and many many more frequent trips to the craft halls.  

This is all perfectly fine to those of you who aren't interested in crafting.  But for many of the players in Layonara, crafting is a big part of this game as well.  I'd say 90% or so of all my outings in groups are for 1 crafting purpose or another.

Now a limit to 10 chest or so is more than reasonable in my opinion.  But the idea of monthly chest wipes is a bit ridiculous in my opinion, it places a lot of burden on us crafters to not travel for a portion of our night before with friends and rearrange our inventories to empty out our chests and then we are forced to sit in our homes or log until the wipe happens because we are all extremely over weight limits. (Especially when holding skins, metal, gems, sand/glass, clay etc.  all very heavy)

Eredel

[Drizzlin]

Strykr - 11/4/2006  10:44 AM

Lilswanwillow - 11/3/2006  2:42 PM

monthly chest wipes?

I have never and will never own a home, rent a home, or need chests outside of the bank chests.  Portals are nice, but usually unnessasary.

I think, its an argument: time for the team vs lag monster.  mayhaps the team can come to terms with the lag monster sometime without this, but people aren't policing themselves.  At all.  This is evident because of the restrictions placed under the new submissions, the extreme lag because of what people carry in thier inventories, the crud in thier homes...

something needs to be changed, but noone wants to change? how bout a complete wipe of the housing system.  Take it all away, and re-imburse gold for what the house and only the house cost.  PC's can only purchase and have one house, even as a co-owner. houses can only have 2 rooms. Each house can only hold 10 chests.

that MAY change a LOT. and then, people whom can't limit themselves won't have to.

and I don't care who gets mad at me for saying so

Why don't we just remove the whole CNR/crafting system as well?  Based on much of what you are saying, that is the real problem.  But if you are for that, I certainly hope you aren't using any magic gloves, rings, belts, etc.  Us crafters tend to need to acquire a fair amount of materials to avoid hundreds, if not thousands, of trips to the craft halls.  Food crafting for example.  We must gather corn in mass loads for corn oil, meal, flour and eggs.  In addition, say we wish to work on pies.  Well you need additional 6-8 units of fruit.  But are we going to gather only 6-8?  Probably not.  We may gather 6-8 of each fruit in our traveling adventures, perhaps a bit more if we happen to pass areas twice or other areas with similar fruits.  Then perhaps we are passing by areas that also have items of alchemaic nature.  So we gather those as well.  In the process of all this traveling we happen to encounter creatures/monsters and find equipment worth taking back to town to sell or donate.  Now our bags are getting very full.

Oh but wait, we happen to practice jewelry too.  I happen to be a wizard and I cannot mine metals.  Therefore I must pay someone to gather and smelt for me.  And we all know that metal is rather heavy, especially if you have only a carrying capacity of 116 lbs with magic jewelry on.  (Not including spells)  Thus because I am physically weak, I should stick to just one or 2 crafts, or none at all, because I can't physically carry the heavy stuff.  Take away our housing and chest then we are physically limited to natural and enhanced strength and many many more frequent trips to the craft halls.  

This is all perfectly fine to those of you who aren't interested in crafting.  But for many of the players in Layonara, crafting is a big part of this game as well.  I'd say 90% or so of all my outings in groups are for 1 crafting purpose or another.

Now a limit to 10 chest or so is more than reasonable in my opinion.  But the idea of monthly chest wipes is a bit ridiculous in my opinion, it places a lot of burden on us crafters to not travel for a portion of our night before with friends and rearrange our inventories to empty out our chests and then we are forced to sit in our homes or log until the wipe happens because we are all extremely over weight limits. (Especially when holding skins, metal, gems, sand/glass, clay etc.  all very heavy)

Eredel

I couldn't agree more Eredel. Listening to a few of the people here post it seems to me they do not craft and only play here to grind some xps and the occasional RP. Like you said though, i bet they are sporting fine jewlery made by the dedicated crafters. That is hypocricy at its best. Crafting and RP are what have kept me on layonara since early 2005. With the way the current CNR is, removing houses and eliminating chests will destroy crafting. Then the new people who are trying to craft, will complain how unfair it is that everyone else leveled up their crafting skills with an unfair advantage.

Correct me if I'm wrong, one of the major problems with lag is when people log in the game with tons of items (mostly CNR mind you) in their inventory. While I know the storage of items in the chest pushes the database, I was under the impression that only when the chests are opened does it "lag" the server.

If you remove those chests all together, you will have more people carrying items on their person. You want to talk lag, wait until some of the crafters have to carry all their items around. Now if the entire crafting system was some how tweaked so that crafters didn't have to horde CNR (even if it is for only for a few days while gathering enough to make a few items) by the chest fulls, then I would think it a great idea to limit storage space and housing.

Personally I love the CNR system and I don't think it needs any major changing. The gathering and storing CNR materials is a major part of layonara, and 90% of the reason why I ever go out and XP. To just throw out crafting and storage would undermine a lot of what layonara is. I am not saying that changes are not needed from time to time, but they should be in the spirit of what layo is and has been. Layo has tried a few ways of allowing people to store their goods and sell them in the past. I have played on Layonara long enough to have remembered when Ozy made his toon, and when I had a vendor set up in Hlint to sell my wares fore me. The vendor lag was insane and needed to be removed.

I think when monthly chest wipes start occuring, so should monthly wipes of xps, gold, and any equipment you are not wearing. If you don't get that level within a month of when you started it...you don't deserve it anyway. I hope people can see how rediculous that sounds. To address what Lilswanwillow said, I have never made, nor will make, a paladin or good aligned PC. So how about we remove the paladin class and all good aligned PCs made? Sound fair or reasonable? The lag monster will be tackled when there are less PCs in play with the removal of the goodies and paladins. It sounds as fair as your argument that "just because I don't, everyone else shouldn't either".

I really hope (and i know deep down you will) that the Layo team realizes how important CNR and crafting is to the Layo players. We love the system and it keeps a ton of us coming back. I love the RP here, the quests, the DMs and the history of Layo. CNR crafting is not the only thing that keeps me here, but it keeps me going out and xping.

[Guardian 452]

Crafting and CNR is more than half the enjoyment I get from Layonara, and it is for many others too. You can't craft here with out storage... sorry you cant!  Too many crafts requiring other crafts.

Lets make a Compound bow for example... Woodcraft, Baking, Smelting, Tinkering, Tailoring.


Doing something as extreem as you promote Lanniswillow will send many people away from Layo... which isn't the objective of a growing world.

Drizz is right... openening a chest full of stuff will cause a bit of lag... but I never see a spike on my screen. However... id say 5 out of 10 players I see log in cause at a good 5 to 20 second lag pause right now....

So why are people making such a big stink about too much storage when it isn't what is causing the visible and often unplayble lag for us?

[Talen]

Here's a bit of a hint why crafters need so much storage. For instance, one pair of tiger boots. If you do the cooking and alchemy that is needed as well as the tailoring, which some do, my tailor char included

1 Thread
2 Tiger Leather
1 Cloth Pattern
3 Essences of Grace
4 Dust of Fire Opal
2 Potions of Cat's Grace

equates to

2 spider silk
6 salt
2 Fire Agate Dust
2 Borbardier Beetle Belly
2 Yellow Mushrooms
2 Fire Beetle Belly
2 Cotton
40 Elderberries
5 Almonds
4 Dust of Fire Opal
2 Catnip
And about 15 different containers

if you make everything on the first try.

Also kind of explains why some things are expensive. That's alot of running around

[Hellblazer]

Ok well as a guild person I would like to state out something.  I dont know if wny other guild is at the moment like the Angels, but we do not own a guild house, yet.
  When we wanted to buy a house in Hlint, not to store more cnr, but to have a place to store what we wanted to sel in Hlint, we asked for a member to be present to buy one house.  He was standing in line, like all the others were, but he told us that after only 20 Second, all houses that were availabel in hlint were sold. 20 second!
  So instead he bought one in fort Llast, which is not what we wanted at first, but is a good alternative.
  When you are 11 people who can craft, it takes some resources, many of those people uses the same ersources so to make sure every one can work you need to have many of the same cnrs stored. Which means, you make trips with the guild members and get the cnrs. But then, you need to store them, need to store the finish products and what you gather on the trips that you know can be sold.
  It does take some place and probably, due to not always wanting to go on treks or not having your people around 24/7, you dont do much more than crafting or rp. And maybe you are those kind of players that dont go on trips with others because you dont know how those person work in a trip.. Will they rush, talk to long, not prepare properly, not have healing potions or kits with them, that would unltimatly make a simple trip be more dangerous than it shoudl be, so you wait for the people who you know you are safe to travel with to be there, online.
  So what do you do while waiting for them to show up? You rp, but then again after some time of rping you want to do somethign else, so you craft and thus, even though you may have the same product 6 or 7 time in stock, you have what you have to work with. So you produce more, but then it takes more space, in that case you buy more crates to put the good and at one point you have no more space, when that happens what do you do? ask to remodel your house which cost an arm, two legs and half of your brain, and rightly so, as I agree that there is to many money going around.
  No? then you do the next best thing, instead of paying more than what the house value is, you buy a second house, and store what you cant sell right away, because of competition, but you know you will sell one day and worked hard to make, in RP sence i mean, it's not hard to click a choice but remember that your character may be working hours to make what took 3 sec to click with your mouse, and you dont want to waste, neither the cnr that you got with your sweat blood and guts and some time with seeing one of your friends fall to help the guild get what it needed. For that matter, you dont want to waste that and in the same time waste all the efforts of those who were present to get it, what choice do you have then? sell it to the pawn shop for almost nothing and thus wasting it, or storing it for the time being, untill some one will need it and then make good on the time and effort it took to produce that equipement.
  It's easy to say that guild are rich and that all their members are, but I can tell you for my self that this isnt at all that true.  Some are yes, but I can tell you from experience that this is not true for all.  Take the angels for example, at the moment the guild only has enough to buy its guild hall and furnish it somewhat, some of their members has more money than others because they go out on trip, while others have no money at all, because they have to buy some crafting materials that they need or have to pay back loans on a house they bought to raise their litle buggers and have a place to sleep and comune with their friends and family.  Others have no housing at all and even less gold.  That is probably true for a lot of other people who either are in organisation or not.
  So saying that guilds are that powerful is not that true.
  Did you ever aproach a guild to have a partnership? have them sell your products, keep a percentage and then give you the bigest part of the sale? we do it for some people, we could do it for you to if you wanted.
  Yes it can be hard to be only one or two, but remember that this is how the server was intended, in all its meaning, as it is hard to go out and adventure or gather things you need, so much is it hard to compete with other well organised faction.  It is how it is and I wouldnt change it for anything.  We all agreed by coming on this server to what the rules and policies where, some of us knew before hand what the community was like, some didnt, but none of us ( i hope) thought that they would come here and get rich over one night without having to work for it, and some time have to work against other people who are working the same fields as you do.
  How i see things is like this, you have two choices here:
  1- you keep going like you are, with your friend, and have more friend come and help you but still have to fight over the people who are established for a longer time than you.
  or
  2- you make alliances with those who are more established than you and can help you start up.
  The Angels were lucky to have some good friends who helped us a whole lot to get started. Not with money, but with suggestion and manpower. You guys know who you are and we thank you a lot for helping us.  If it was not for them, we probably would not be where we are today. Maybe the point is than even if you want to have you own thing, you need to team up with more people who can help you.  Which is by the way the idea of this server.
  It might be true that there is people who are pushing the limits real far, but at the same time you can not put all the people in the same basket without looking at how they are working and where they have come from and the steps they needed to take as a whole to get to where they are.

[Chongo]

Drizzlin - 11/4/2006  12:41 PM

Listening to a few of the people here post it seems to me they do not craft and only play here to grind some xps and the occasional RP.

Classic statement.

The CNR contingent has some fine points, but there's no need to get mean here bub.  Crafting, experience, any sort of progression... it is inherently, by itself, non-relevant to roleplay.  It's what you do with it and while progressing in it that constitutes roleplay.  So let's get away from the ever confused and angst-ridden statements like this.

Fine points, I'd just encourage everyone to refrain from making useless jabs.

Fun fun.

[Drizzlin]

Chongo - 11/4/2006  12:46 PM

Drizzlin - 11/4/2006  12:41 PM

Listening to a few of the people here post it seems to me they do not craft and only play here to grind some xps and the occasional RP.

Classic statement.

The CNR contingent has some fine points, but there's no need to get mean here bub.  Crafting, experience, any sort of progression... it is inherently, by itself, non-relevant to roleplay.  It's what you do with it and while progressing in it that constitutes roleplay.  So let's get away from the ever confused and angst-ridden statements like this.

Fine points, I'd just encourage everyone to refrain from making useless jabs.

Fun fun.

While you have some points, saying "i don't do it so its not important and we should get rid of it" is just as much of a "confused and angst-ridden statement". Mine is just a tad bit easier to pick out because I don't try to hide behind a colorful story or a thesaurus. My statement is blunt, and only offending if it fits. Which should not be offending to a person who is actually here for only those reasons.

I'm not making a useless jab. I am giving my opinion of how I am understanding the thread. I am not putting anyone down. In fact I didn't even say, "my enjoyment of the game is different from yours, so yours should be removed", without thinking of the consequences of such a statement.

[merlin34baseball]

Um... this was not intended AT ALL to get people sniping at eachother...  It was to address the problems that independent crafters have in this world.

Please, please be nice.  I have heard good arguments from both sides and I'd hate to ask that the thread be locked.

[Vyris]

If you need two houses to store things, despite what your intentions are, you're not selling things, you are hoarding things.

I don't think anyone has advocated removing crafting, or the CNR system, I think that was taken from a comment about "If you are going to wipe schests etc you MIGHT AS WELL remove the crafting system. I enjoy crafting, but I also don't have a problem spending 2 hours collecting the items I'm going to need, then go use them, instead of stockpiling enough to keep me busy for 5 hours to make 15 items that I then have to hold onto until they sell, one day... eventually.

I think the point some crafters are missing is that there has to be supply and demand. If you craft with no demand all you are doing is causing a glut in the market. Most customers are willing to wait another 6 hours - two days for an item, after all, this is a purchase they have been saving for more than likely for a week or more.

The last person I saw walking around Hlint trying to sell items was back a looong time ago when Talan used to walk around Hlint with his ring case and sell his wares. If you wanted something he didn't have in stock he would get back to you in a day or so with your order.

I guess what I am saying is that if you wait till there is a demand for an item then you don't need a ton of storage, definately far shy of needing two houses. As far as hypocrisy, how far is it from being a hypocrit to make 15 things just to sit in a chest in case one of them may sell one day. It's not out swinging a sword and grinding away at your XP to next level, but it could be said that it's grinding away at your craft levels, and it's a lot easier to RP with someone while you are out 'adventuring' than it is when you have crafting menues gobbling up your conversation screen.

Anyhow. I think what the point was is that

1) Craft guilds, who have a craft hall have a central location where people who are collecting CNR can deposit the gathered goods and finished product. It might not be the be-all end-all of convenience, ie, Hlint. But most people will go to where the merchant has it.

2) If people don't want to police themselves, why should those who DO be sympathetic because someone wants to have a dozen first and second level stat rings on hand of each type at any given time, plus the CNR to make more, just in case one might sell.? The idea of a guild is that you have a diverse enough group of members where you can send someone a PM and likely have whatever you can't harvest yourself in a chest in the guildhall the next day, then 30 minutes later you are sending a PM to your customer telling them their item is ready.

My suggestions, since criticism without suggesting solutions isn't productive.

1) Those who want to start a craft guild start a thread in the trade and market hall with their guilds name, where customers can view a list of items in stock, a list of items available to be made, and a list of members so they can seek someone out in game to arrange a purchase or CC: a single PM to everyone in the guild. I see a lot of individuals with incidental items to sell in that section of the forums, but few groups.

2) Keep track of what sells and what doesn't Get someone to make a spreadsheet to track sales and as you notice trends you can begin to anticipate peoples needs. That way you don't have 10 items taking up space in a chest that may NEVER sell.

3) Don't expect your guild to get you rich, it most likely NEVER will. Most of the people with lots of money spend lots of time out in the field, and have time to play regularly, and also have probably already purchased whatever items and stuff they are going to need for the next billions XP worth of levels They are also able to get to some of the higher end CNR, which are guarded by higher end guardians, which drop higher end loot, which eventually begins to accumulate in the form of a fat bank account.

4) IF you make items to order you don't NEED the overhead of a house, then two houses...all your time invested in CNR is going to a product thats already sold. If you want to hone your skills (or grind your crafting XP, however you want to look at it)accept the fact you are doing it for THAT purpose and then sell the things you make to the pawn shop.

Anyhow, thats my take on things *shrug*

Vyris

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Vyris - 11/3/2006  10:29 PM

I would be in favor of no player owned housing personaly. Perhaps once a person gains world leader status they could have a house customized to their liking, that would be kindof a cool reward.

If there were no player housing people would be encouraged to join trade guilds. If you want a room with some additional storage and access to a portal join a guild. In fact, guilds could become pretty powerfull organizations, just as they were in the time period that NwN is modeled after. There could also be religious organizations, like the brotherhood of Vorax for instance... etc.

I think it would be kinda neat. I own a house and I would be willing to give it up for a global system like that. Just give me a room and a 20 item chest and a 10 item wardrobe that both lock. As often as I actually spend time in my house that would be more than enough.

Vyris

Vyris is my hero.

[Chongo]

Drizzlin - 11/4/2006  2:05 PM

Chongo - 11/4/2006  12:46 PM

Drizzlin - 11/4/2006  12:41 PM

Listening to a few of the people here post it seems to me they do not craft and only play here to grind some xps and the occasional RP.

Classic statement.

The CNR contingent has some fine points, but there's no need to get mean here bub.  Crafting, experience, any sort of progression... it is inherently, by itself, non-relevant to roleplay.  It's what you do with it and while progressing in it that constitutes roleplay.  So let's get away from the ever confused and angst-ridden statements like this.

Fine points, I'd just encourage everyone to refrain from making useless jabs.

Fun fun.

While you have some points, saying "i don't do it so its not important and we should get rid of it" is just as much of a "confused and angst-ridden statement". Mine is just a tad bit easier to pick out because I don't try to hide behind a colorful story or a thesaurus. My statement is blunt, and only offending if it fits. Which should not be offending to a person who is actually here for only those reasons.

I'm not making a useless jab. I am giving my opinion of how I am understanding the thread. I am not putting anyone down. In fact I didn't even say, "my enjoyment of the game is different from yours, so yours should be removed", without thinking of the consequences of such a statement.

Again, I think your wording could be a little less hostile.  It's not productive.  There's just no relevancy to playstyle in this topic and I have no idea why it's coming into it.  These mass generalizations that anyone against crafting is here to 'grind xp' is just false.  So why say it at all?

I don't think anyone's said that "I don't do it so its not important and we should get rid of it".  I mean, I'm in Raven Trade Co.

So.. high five and a thumbs up and we're back to the nice talk?

[Lilswanwillow]

yup, it was an idea to show people what could happen if they aren't policing themselves.
I love the CNR stuff, I have been on here a year, and do not xp grind or whatever ya call it.  RP mostly, since my highest lv char is 10, after a year of playing.
I NEVER said get rid of it.  I made a statement that got your attention though, huh?
got your attention to a HUGE problem, which is too much stuff.  I own, well... no magic items, on either character I currently have.  Oh, cept ronus' boots.  BUT this disscussion is not yell at someone because I said something drastic.  This whole discussion is about people policing themselves.

Mayhaps instead of having your characters craft multiple things, only craft one type.  Police yourselves, and this whole topic would not have come up.

One of the main things mentioned before people start crafting is "would your character in a RP sence WANT to craft?"  A fighter, yeah, weapons and armor.  a mage? why would a mage make armor. maybe bags, potions...

does it make sense for a ranger to craft anything other than leather armors and bows/arrows? a monk to craft anything? a cleric-potions.  theives have thier poisons... dwarves have thier armor...

get what I'm saying.  my statement was made to make people stand up and look, and that could be worst case senario!!!  Maybe policing yourselves seems like a much better option now?

[Drizzlin]

I am not going to get into it, read the thread if you can't find where it was said Chongo. I even quoted it once.

Vyris,

As far as what you are saying, that has nothing to do with me (or 90% of the other crafters I know/talk with). I don't have a house filled with completed items, nor do I "flood" the market. We have to craft items to level up our crafting in order make the better things. I make things and then dump them off in the trash can or a pawn shop (I would donate them to my temple, but seeing how Ca'Duz's temple is destroyed...).

Now I know this thread was directed at guilds, but the changes offered affect the people like Tyrian and I who craft alone, without a guild. I have a house filled with partial items to make things, not items waiting to sell. I place things in the house to avoid lag that carrying the items would cause the rest of the server.

[Vyris]

Drizzlin - 11/4/2006  6:39 PM

Vyris,

As far as what you are saying, that has nothing to do with me (or 90% of the other crafters I know/talk with).

I thought it was pretty universal, for instance if you wanted to you could create a spreadsheet to  track what you sold, and even keep tabs on your half created items.

I don't have a house filled with completed items, nor do I "flood" the market.

I said create a glut, creating a glut in the market happens when items are produced without demand, it creates a supply imbalance and undervalues the product. Flooding the market is something completely different, which would be to build up a big surplus of items (a glut), say 100 Iron longswords, then go out and sell those iron longswords at 2 for 500 coins. You have a situation similar to a glut, the difference being the items are all out IN the market, and now completely valueless, rather than sitting around in a warehouse, being undervalued and limiting any needed production.

We have to craft items to level up our crafting in order make the better things. I make things and then dump them off in the trash can or a pawn shop

Thats exactly what I stated in my post, it's a natural part of progressing in CNR, and my secondary point on that matter was you shouldn't expect to get rich from it (not saying YOU think you're going to get rich off it mind you). Which also brings up another point of view. Does everyone have to churn out countless items of dubious value to get to the next step in crafting? I have done it, but it's not enjoyable... Whats wrong with creating enough of the things that are valuable to your character for them to use? I have a character that doesn't make anything but bandages, that involves a little gemcutting and a little alchemy, but once those are effortless tasks for what he needs I'm not going to make fluff items to get better at it. My fighter made just enough armor to get a decent shot at making an iron full plate, and I won't touch a forge again untill I'm ready to step up to something better, and only if I don't have funds to purchase one.

(I would donate them to my temple, but seeing how Ca'Duz's temple is destroyed...).

Thats something completely beside the point, and if you wanted to raise a new a new temple and organize the fund raising I'm sure you could do it in an RP sense, then donate away. It's been done before.

Now I know this thread was directed at guilds, but the changes offered affect the people like Tyrian and I who craft alone, without a guild. I have a house filled with partial items to make things, not items waiting to sell. I place things in the house to avoid lag that carrying the items would cause the rest of the server.

I don't have any characters that belong to a guild, and I mainly craft with Jennara, who asks me to make things, we get a party together to go gather the CNR I need, then I give it to her, we gather the CNR she needs (or we gather everything at once) and she makes what someone asked HER to make, and then we're done. Usually we get some pretty fun RP out of it and we only spend a real minor portion of time collecting CNR. We have a few chests in our shared house, mostly full of things like coal, which we gather when we pass by it sometimes, unused ore chunks (after you go get adamantium you don't want to throw a piece away, you save it till you get 2 more Or unidentified items that are waiting on me to make lore potions and identify then donate to Roldem most likely.

Anyway, I'm going to duck out, I'm starting to feel like a forum troll.

Vyris

[Strykr]

I would agree that hording finished items in the dozens is ridiculous, unless it is healing potions or something.  Otherwise pawn them or donate them.  I on the otherhand, whether you see it as right or wrong, keep plenty of necessary CNR to make the items I sell on demand.  For instance, Scribing.  I keep plenty of aloe, skullcap, witch hazel, garlic, graveyard dirt, etc on hand.  Much of it not on my person.  Then I have a box I carry with me with a fair amount of gem dust, as it is light to carry.  I keep anywhere from 10-30 parchments of all types on me and now I can provide scroll services, somewhat, on demand.  I may not have enough honey at times, but I try to keep 10-15 in a chest as well.  And I'm always collecting corn for eggs.

Then there is ring making.  Again, I don't make rings really for others, although I have.  But I do keep plenty of cut and some uncut alexandrite and even some diamonds in chests at my home.  Then my ox is usually loaded from 1-40 or so gold ingots which I must purchase from a supplier.  But I must keep it in supply if I decide to work on rings or on demand.

Alchemy, well I really only work on healing potions for personal use.  So I have aloe, and the other ingredients as needed.

Cooking...I'm also gathering cooking supplies for making pies and such.  But I also have a fair amount of wheat flour in the house in case I need to make a bunch of bread for myself or friends.  (My pies are mostly preserved for RP groups)

Lastly, tinkering.  I like to create enchanting rods of fire for my arrows.  Thus I must collect lots and lots of sand and make glass.  I have to store this glass until my friends can get me a supply of coal.

I think the point is well made for CNR.  Hoarding finished goods of more than a couple of items of each type doesn't, in my opinion make sense, unless they are consumables.  But having sufficient supplies of CNR for creating items makes much more sense.  Yes, you could certainly go on a long outing to gather all necessary items as needed for orders.  But can you imagine getting a scroll order, for example, for level 2, 4, 6 spells of various types and not have the CNR?  You'd have to get hickory, oak, mahogany, honey, various gems for dust, various plants or misc including corn for eggs to make ink.  It would be a serious burden.  Instead, casually gather items as you are out and occasionally go out with specific intent for other items, as I do for garlic and skullcap and various other things.

I think what it truly comes down to is self policing.  But they may or may not work as proven.  However, going to any other extreme is only going to cause a ration of anger from many crafters and potentially non crafters for the mere sake of narrowing game dynamics.  Layonara is as great as it is partly because of the whole crafting aspect.  Which does certainly enhance RP quite a bit.

[Hellblazer]

Vyris - 11/4/2006  5:22 PM  The last person I saw walking around Hlint trying to sell items was back a looong time ago when

 Ferrit pandorn is selling almost every day rom her ox in front of teh bank...

[Etinfall]

Maybe there are too any crafters? Or too many crafters doing multiple crafts?

[Hellblazer]

Etinfall - 11/5/2006  11:51 AM  Maybe there are too any crafters? Or too many crafters doing multiple crafts?

 That would imply limiting who can craft, now two problems: 1 how do you tell someone you cant craft in that craft 2 how is that being fair to every one.
  Crafting is an intergrated part of this server, and probably one of the things that makes this server that good. Saying there is to many crafters could goas far as saying there is to many red haired on this server, or to many magicians and so on.
  These are all free choices that the players has, and taking it away is severly penalising people.