Understanding Weird and Wail of the Banshee

[twidget658]

I understand the Weird spell...a phantasm appears and if the enemy believes the illusion to be real and fails the affects of being scared (fortitude), the beegeebies are scared out of the enemy and they die.
 
 Wail of the Banshee is...a scream or yell? A burst of sonic energy that does what? Scramble the brain or bursts vessels, what?
 
 And then it comes up in party. Weird is used and it is okay. Wail is used and it is not. Just because of magic school? Is it okay to scare the  out of the enemy but you can't scream at them? I fail to really see why one is acceptable and the other is not.

[s0ulz]

Well I guess it revolves aroun two things: first, spells have been around for a while and it's association with necromancy is known and frowned upon.

Difference is minimal, yet despite the VFX of peoples soul's leaving their body with Weird, they actually just die of horror. They blank out and die, no damage incurs.

Wail however causes massive hemorages in the brain and causes the victim to die a horrible and painful death.

So even though the VFX are slightly inaccurate, Weird is a much tender(yes I said tender) way of killing a foe than Wail. Weird is killing someone with a shot in the head, while Wail uses a nailgun to crucify and then kill.

My ideas at least...

[twidget658]

Well, the enemy takes damage from Weird and not Wail, so wouldn't weird be painful and Wail not? A brain hemorage kills quickly, most of the time not known at all.
 
 So I am thinking, would I rather see something that would possibly make me soil myself and my heart stop (the damage aspect, heart attack) from being scared, or would I rather have my brain turned to mush instantly and probably not feel a thing?
 
 Makes me think of that movie Scanners.

[Force_of_Will_]

Weird is an illusion that makes mass numbers die of fright.
Wail is a spell that calls forth the wail of a Banshee which in legend if heard causes the person to drop dead.

 Here is what I found on a web site.

Banshees by Tom Slemen

[SIZE=+7][SIZE=+3][SIZE=+2] The banshee is one of the most well-known figures of Irish folklore. The name is derived from the Irish Gaelic 'bean sidhe', meaning 'woman of the fairies'. According to tradition, the banshee's mournful cry is said to foretell death. The banshee is described as having long straight white or red hair which covers her face, and she combs her hair as she wails outside the family home of the person who is about to die. The person who is about to pass away never hears or sees the banshee, and once the death takes place, the crying ceases and the eerie apparition immediately vanishes.


[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][SIZE=+7][SIZE=+3][SIZE=+2][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Dorganath]

Wail is Necromancy, and some have it in their head that it's "evil" as a result. This perception makes some people get all crazy when someone casts it. I'm pretty sure damage can result from this spell due to the strong sonic component. *refrains from rant on the travesty of moving healing spells away from Necromancy where they belong*

Weird is Illusion, and anyone who's played PnP with illusion spells knows that if one believes in the illusion, then it's almost as real as if it were not illusion, which can result in physical damage and death.  In this case, it essentially presents the greatest fear each person or creature in the area of effect may have....something so terrifying that it can literally kill the targets out of fright and shock.

And yeah, there's some confusion due to the visual we use when someone loses a Soul Strand upon death.  That visual is meant to illustrate the agony and trauma of having a Soul Strand cut at time of death.

[LynnJuniper]

In addition , there are four types of Illusions: Figments, Glamours, Phantasms, and Shadows. Weird is a Phantasm.

Phantasm: A phantasm spell creates a mental image that usually only the caster and the subject (or subjects) of the spell can perceive. This impression is totally in the minds of the subjects. It is a personalized mental impression. (It's all in their heads and not a fake picture or something that they actually see.) Third parties viewing or studying the scene don't notice the phantasm. All phantasms are mind-affecting spells.

Weird shows the targets an image of the Wyrdling of legend, said to cause fear in the greatest of adventurers. Also, something to remember: 3rd parties cannot see the visual, only the caster and subject(s). 3rd parties would see a mass dropping dead. Same with Phantasmal killer, only thats singular.

[Skywatcher]

How is wail a necromancy spell seems to be the key issue for me.  I have always RP'd that somehow it drew energy from the negative energy plane or from the souls of the dead and that was a bad thing but that's just something I made up to account for it's being a necro spell.  Is it like summoning an undead because a banshee is an undead?  Is a banshee maybe a spirit that is not at rest being called forth and having it's suffering taken advantage of?  That's the kind of reason that would make a definite distinction between an illusion and this spell.  Of course if it's only necro because it kills people then that's a different story then there is little distinction.

[Dorganath]

It's Necromancy because it works by directly affecting life force, in this case, its primary purpose and method of operation is to destroy life. It's not summoning an undead.  In the d20 SRD it's a Necromancy spell with a verbal component only, so the "wail" in this case originates from the caster.

Of course the d20 version differs from the NWN implementation, but nevertheless, the idea behind the effect is the same.

[miltonyorkcastle]

.... but, isn't the primary purpose and method of operation of Wierd to destroy life?

[lonnarin]

Not necessarilly.  When used in moderation, weird can become an effective cure for constipation!  

[miltonyorkcastle]

*slaps forehead* Steel will be sure to try that the next time he adds a +20 to his will save.

[Dorganath]

.... but, isn't the primary purpose and method of operation of Wierd to destroy life?

You could make the same argument for Fireball and almost every other offensive spell.  The key is in the mechanism used by the spell.

Fact is that Weird uses illusion to cause extreme, heart-stopping fear, which is different than directly affecting the life force of the target(s).  The target(s) may die as a result, or merely suffer some physiological damage and temporary disorientation as a result.

Wail directly attacks life force by emulating the effect of a supernatural creature.

[miltonyorkcastle]

You could make the same argument for Fireball and almost every other offensive spell. The key is in the mechanism used by the spell.

Which is exactly why I asked the question. In essence, what you're saying is that the effect of the spell is less important in defining the nature of the spell than the method by which it accomplishes its task.

Lots of spells kill. Some kill by burning the victim, some by cutting the victim apart, etc. If you think about it, every single offensive spell produces some pretty gruesome results. Wail of the Banshee may rip out your life force, but it certainly can't be that much worse than getting fried by a delayed blast Fireball. Being burnt alive is one of the most painful ways to go, even if the it's a flashfire like a fireball.

[Skywatcher]

Then I am thinking as a Toranite that the typical aversion to necromancy that the church has would not be so much applicable to the weird wail argument.  Mostly why necromancy is opposed from a good/bad perspective is due to the summoning of undead or drawing on energy or power from the negative energy plane into the prime.  Since Wail is just mimicking an undead creature then its use in combat should not be seen as all that different than Weird.  As long as the targets and effect are used for good purposes.  Does that sound right?

[Dorganath]

Well heh...a particular group's aversion to Necromancy, be they Toranites, Aeridinites, Voraxites or just the general populace....it all seems to melt away when asking for Death Ward, which is of course Necromancy.  

• Necromancy affects life force.  The result may be death.
• Evocation brings forces into being (i.e. elemental spells).  The result may be death.
• Illusion assaults the mind.  The result may be death.
• Conjuration brings forth creatures and things that do not belong and bind them to do one's will.  The result may be death.
• Abjuration can defend one against another, "break" other magics and act as a barrier.  The result may be death.

And so on.

Some might say "Oh, Necromancy is good, because it protects." or "Evocation is evil...where is the good in burning something to death?" or "Illusion is evil and deceptive.  Where is the good in scaring something to death?" or "Conjuration is evil.  Those poor creatures being subjugated to the will of a wizard/cleric and often dying for an unknown cause." or "Abjuration is evil...it is cowardly to hide behind a shield of fire and let one's enemies kill themselves upon it."

It's all perspective.

So really, there's no "bad" magic...just bad magic users

Now, whether a Toranite would have that kind of a view is questionable, though I suppose an argument could be made against more than one kind of magic from a certain perspective. Your character may or may not know the difference between Wail (Necromancy) and Weird (Illusion), and would see only that the spell kills instantly.

My experience is that most people/characters don't really have a problem with a type of magic but rather with specific spells and how they are used.  However, the nasty, darker side of Necromancy is unfortunately the most visible and well-known of that school, and so they scream "FOUL NECROMANCY" at the tops of their lungs and go on a tirade about your evil dark magicks...

That is until you offer them Death Wards.

[Varka]

A death ward does not start off a siren with 5000 dB which is actually the true reason why people hate it

[Varka]

No really, as many players layo have, almost as many ways there is to interpret the spells.

Nothing is 100 percent right or wrong. Some people/player care about the spells some dont and thats what makes it such a good topic IC.

A topic that can be discussed for eternity on layo and best IC!

[miltonyorkcastle]

I couldn't have said it better myself, Dorg.

[Filatus]

I think you should look at Layo's population as the magicwielding group (very small group) and those who don't wield it. And probably don't even understand what the dynamics of the spell. A farmer who has little knowledge about magic hears two spells, "Wail of the Banshee" and "Weird". Guess which spell sounds evil to him? People probably know some scary tales about banshees.

So I don't think it should be stated that a particular spell is evil or not. Those who don't know about the magic involved will come to their own perceptions.

Now.. this topic started on those two spells but digressed into schools. At any rate I think it's more complex than to just state whether a spell is evil or not. If you include the perception of those who practice a specific school.

The stereotypes are envokers are crazy, necromancers are evil, diviners are pale and thin people who never leave their crystal ball, enchanters are politicians, conjurers summon things, illusionists are often circus gnomes and abjurers are.. well, you better stay away from those, because nobody really understands what they do.

That was meant half in jest, mostly half because it wasn't that funny. But what I'm saying is that you shouldn't come with a community wide perception on those spells.

And I don't agree to the pure sound aspect of Wail on the Banshee. Deathward works for a reason.

[twidget658]

...[SIZE=+7][SIZE=+3][SIZE=+2]the banshee's mournful cry is said to foretell death. ... she wails outside the family home of the person who is about to die. The person who is about to pass away never hears or sees the banshee, ...[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

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Phantasm: A phantasm spell creates a mental image that usually only the caster and the subject (or subjects) of the spell can perceive. This impression is totally in the minds of the subjects. It is a personalized mental impression. (It's all in their heads and not a fake picture or something that they actually see.) Third parties viewing or studying the scene don't notice the phantasm.

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It's not summoning an undead. In the [/COLOR]d20 SRD it's a Necromancy spell with a verbal component only, so the "wail" in this case originates from the caster.

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Fact is that Weird uses illusion to cause extreme, heart-stopping fear, which is different than directly affecting the life force of the target(s). The target(s) may die as a result, or merely suffer some physiological damage and temporary disorientation as a result.[/COLOR]
 
 Wail directly attacks life force by emulating the effect of a supernatural creature.

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 It seems that an instant death spell would be more humane then being sliced and diced, electrocuted, burned, drowned, frozen, etc. Less messy, too (well, the soiled pants thing aside).