Author Topic: Weird and constructs (Read 239 times)

Skywatcher · « **on:** August 25, 2007, 03:55:30 pm »

A couple of people have recently said that the spell Weird was going to be adjusted to not affect constructs or undead in the recent update. I have only heard of this OOC from players in game and not seen anything on the forums about this. Today a group tested this out and the spell still works mechanics wise but one player said that the rules changed and since the spell is not supposed to work that it was in Leanthar's server rules that it was an exploit to use weird on constructs as of last week. I pay pretty close attention to the forums when I did a search and read the server rules I found no reference so since I had not seen this anywhere I figured if I missed it then one of two things is possible. Either its a missunderstanding and nothing has changed or other people must have missed it too. So I thought I would ask for clarification from the team on the issue just to make it perfectly clear. Thanks.

Black Raven · « **Reply #1 on:** August 25, 2007, 04:05:46 pm »

I was there when Wren told us all to stop using Weird on the constructs and undead monsters from now on.

Now, I havent "heard" about this it at least once ever since aside from when Godim kept repeating it over and over with whoever was with him in huangjin.

Also, shouldnt you also make sure that horrid wilting and other spells arnet used on them if your adjusting spells to make sense? sense it is supposed to suck the moist out of things, cant imagine a golem sweating to be honest .

LynnJuniper · « **Reply #2 on:** August 25, 2007, 04:06:29 pm »

The last I checked, Leanthar said he wasn't going to be doing any further work on the spell Weird, that it would be left the way it is, as working on whatever it did now. That said, I thought constructs were immune to mind spells, therefore rendering it useless. Is this not the case?

Anyway, the most I can do is not hit things like bugs , constructs and undead with Weird out of understanding of how the spell is supposed to work. If no more work can be made on the spell all we can do is hope others will do the same in the favor of rp over mechanics.

Lord of the Forest · « **Reply #3 on:** August 25, 2007, 05:14:30 pm »

Constructs should not be affected be weird, this is kinda common knowledge as whee, an illusion kills a construct or whee, an undead creature, most probably braindead killed by something in its mind

Yes we are aware it is bugged but blame bioware

Skywatcher · « **Reply #4 on:** August 25, 2007, 05:50:17 pm »

So since this has been the case for so long and nothing has changed my question is how the team wants this spell dealt with. Should it be used against what it works against which from an RP perspective can be justified from the empirical evidence of seeing it work for whatever reason (I mean it is fantasy so there is no real spell physics at work here) or should we have a list of which creatures we should and should not use various spells on so everyone has the same rules from party to party and there's no confusion? There are too many exceptions to the rules with spell mechanics with Spell resistance and saves versus various things to make exhaustive lists of the exceptions so the simple thing would be to let the game mechanics rule where spells are concerned. If the team would like to just leave this to each individual then it would be good for that to be stated as well. I am not trying to make things difficult but there are people telling players that L has spoken and this is Law and it seems that it is not so I would just like it cleared up.

Chongo · « **Reply #5 on:** August 25, 2007, 05:58:24 pm »

This is not a rule, and to my knowledge you were misinformed on not being able to use it on constructs. That said, I'm not the guy in charge, so I could be mistaken. The scripting required to fix this already overworked spell has been deemed lacking on the bang for buck scale. It was decided multiple times to not be worked on any further since it would require a difficult work-around of the bioware systems in place. You'd have to ask someone smart for the real answer on that though.

The most significant issue, the fear bug, has been mostly alleviated with the modification of creatures and creature skins.

But weird is not going to be worked on, and if people keep pushing the issue, I know there are a lot of folks who just want to see it ripped out of the module (as this is far easier then altering it). I for one, don't want to see this happen as it's an even match for the other mass-kill spell, even less now with the basic creature modifications. Additionally, we have rest timers and other changes in place to basically end the spell spammer mentality that has been prevalent here for far too long. So... let's all of us stop focusing on it. RP issues aside, it's game mechanics and it's a bit bold to put in a rule stating it shouldn't be used on this, that, and the other thing because it doesn't work correctly. I think this was probably stated offhandedly at one time due to the blatant overuse of the spell. But again, we can safely say that the spell spamming attitude has been given some good medication with the rest timers.

I'd say let's all let this one rest, bury it deep down inside, and never bring it up again.

Dorganath · « **Reply #6 on:** August 25, 2007, 05:58:36 pm »

It's highly unlikely that Weird will see any further changes. It is an odd spell in how it should function over how we're able to make it function.

To clear up some things:

Mind immunity absolutely should NOT work against Weird. The only explicit immunity is True Seeing. Spell Resistance also helps because...well...it's a spell and it's still fair to try and resist it.

What NWN lets us do easily and reliably is unfortunately a limiting factor, along with NWN's own quaint collection of things that just don't work like they should.

I've spent a ton of time working on Weird already making sure it works properly with the various saving thows and such. Way too much time really.

There's one aspect of Weird that I'm trying to resolve, but if I can't, it'll stay like it is. I won't be making special exceptions for undead, constructs and things of that nature.

In general, rumors about this or that which aren't explicitly stated by a Team member or posted as part of the new version updates really shouldn't be trusted as fact. The intent was to have Weird fixed up like it should be, but as I said, there are some things that may stay "broken". It will be as good as it can be made without spending more time on it.

Regarding the original question, Weird was not going to be adjusted to specifically not work on undead and constructs.

Having said that, if someone wants to submit to me a a script that addresses these things, is not terribly complex and most importantly, is reliable and solid, then please do so.

Right now, the code is checking for True Seeing in three different ways. I am going to try having it check one more way, though it may introduce additional lag to do so. If it cannot properly detect this effect or condition with one of these methods, then I am at a loss and I will be down to three options:

1) Keep it and deal with it
2) Nerf it
3) Yank it out completely.

The best way to avoid 2) and 3) is to understand how this spell is supposed to work and not abuse it. It would be a complete shame to have to do one of those, as it's the only illusion spell at 9th level (and we have few enough Illusion spells as it is).

jrizz · « **Reply #7 on:** August 25, 2007, 06:03:42 pm »

Exactly Dorg. I did tell that group that we should not use weird on undead and constructs. I did this according to another discussion we had stating that we should inform players where is spell is being abused.

The best way to handle this is to NOT exploit a bug for IG gain.

Chongo · « **Reply #8 on:** August 25, 2007, 06:25:31 pm »

Sit tight folks. This is being discussed on the staff forums. There is no hard and fast rule at this time.

Nyralotep · « **Reply #9 on:** August 25, 2007, 06:27:15 pm »

A fourth option is to do what some worlds have done. Make TS give + to spot and to listen. Then you truly have to be careful who you cast weird around true but it is another option.

Dorganath · « **Reply #10 on:** August 25, 2007, 07:53:24 pm »

Quote from: Nyralotep

A fourth option is to do what some worlds have done. Make TS give + to spot and to listen. Then you truly have to be careful who you cast weird around true but it is another option.

That wouldn't matter in this case. True Seeing is explicitly the one and only immunity for Weird, and it's not the problem in this case. It's other mechanics upon which Weird depends.

Of course, that change would also cause problems with how Hide/Move Silently is implemented...but that's getting off topic.

Leanthar · « **Reply #11 on:** August 25, 2007, 09:05:18 pm »

I just want to make sure everybody is clear that Dorganth is working on a patch for the major update of last week.

We are not updating any more spells or tweaking any more spells, that has been going on for over 5 years. Most of the spells had to be fixed due to various implemenation paths that Bioware choose to take and we just are not going to work on those spells any more.

You are free to use the spell as is, or any spell for that matter. But please do understand that NwN is flawed with many of its spells due to the way Bioware choose to implement them and us not being able to work around some of their implementations.

All I ask is to keep the spirit of the server in mind, keep RP in mind, and use common sense. Have fun, enjoy the game, but please do not abuse the spells as a few of them can be abused (sadly)...only so much we can do with the time we have available.

Skywatcher · « **Reply #12 on:** August 25, 2007, 09:36:35 pm »

Thanks so much for the response on this. The situation is much clearer.

Leanthar · « **Reply #13 on:** August 25, 2007, 10:48:20 pm »

A point of clarification. As always GM's may (and many will) have thier own rules on a quest (or quest series) that they are running. If a GM has rules for thier quest that XYZ spell should not be used for this or that then that is fine. GM's have their own rules on their own events. So long as all players are aware of the rules on that event (or series) that should be fine, it has always been that way and should remain that way.

I just wanted to make sure everybody understood that point as well.

Chazzler · « **Reply #14 on:** August 26, 2007, 07:57:37 am »

Oh, I just merely Thought that it had been put in to the server rules, as a gamemaster (Jrizz) told our group of this. So please don't think that I lied for some reason I myself can't come up with now. All a mere misunderstanding from my account, and I do apologize if I caused some grief to others with the ongoing "//don't do it" messages.

~Chazzler

DMOE · « **Reply #15 on:** August 26, 2007, 09:31:53 am »

I think it's more that the spell is nerfed due to bioware code and that while in theory it shouldn't work on constructs and undead it obviously does.

It's further complicated by mixed spawn groups and the fact that the spell has been poked at far to many times to make the effort to continue to do so worth while especially with much more important projects in the offing.

To me it's about RPing sensibly and balance....

If you know that the ONLY creatures in a spawn are constructs and undead then to *ME* I wouldn't use weird as I'd know as a magic user it shouldn't kill them.

Now mixed spawns are more complicated as weird is a useful tool to a magic user so I think at that point you should use it and we just need to accept it kills the constructs/undead but it shouldn't.

I think when the team says not to abuse it that the message is that if you know it's an construct/undead spawn only then you shouldn't use weird even though mechanically it does work. It's all about responsible RP really.

So no, not a 'new rule' as such....but to my eyes, more a request to think about how the world should work, not just what the mechanics lets you get away with.

Now, that is just my humble opinion, for what it's worth

jrizz · « **Reply #16 on:** August 26, 2007, 12:16:33 pm »

Thanks DMOE , That was as well said as it could be.

I think most people will look up at L's post and only see:

"You are free to use the spell as is, or any spell for that matter."

But not take the time to understand what he means in this statement:

"please do not abuse the spells as a few of them can be abused (sadly)"

Skywatcher · « **Reply #17 on:** August 26, 2007, 02:49:23 pm »

I understand exactly what you are saying and I guess I am glad I am not playing a caster right now because since the spells don't have lists of the things they are and are not supposed to work on I would just go with the empirical evidence to be the rule meaning if it works on something it works but that's just because the "physics" of magic has always confused me. I mean why can't constructs and undead be afraid? Then there are so many different opinions on how these "laws of magical physics" work and then the team has to rule and then some people don't get the word and then some people ignore the rule and the the team has to enforce the rule and then someone gets banned because they continue to ignore the rule and ..... A lot of work for the protection of the laws of magical physics.

It seems that it would be much simpler to assume that the physics is what you see happen when the spell is cast and if it doesn't work like you think it should then your assumptions are wrong. It just seems like it would take a huge amount of effort to start from scratch and learn all of the rules rather than just having fun.

When I read L's "don't abuse the spirit of the server" I don't see a strict enforcement of magical physics but a request to make sure that everything is done in an RP context and we have fun doing it. So using weird in a dungeon crawl against anything it works on with a group that is tactically coordinating their abilities is fine and using weird over and over while running circles and gathering spawns together to maximize XP per Weird is not ok. The distinction between the acceptable use and not is in the situation and not the physics. That's why there can be no hard fast rule because there are too many variables. We have enough rules so we should just stay in character and have fun using what we have.

Maybe it's just me but I don't see a whole lot of value in debating the physics of magic and a lot of harm that can come from it. I appreciate the team comments on this.

Quote from: Chazzler

So please don't think that I lied for some reason I myself can't come up with now. All a mere misunderstanding from my account, and I do apologize if I caused some grief to others with the ongoing "//don't do it" messages.

~Chazzler

I never thought anything negative about what you said I just thought it was odd that I hadn't heard it from any other source.

LynnJuniper · « **Reply #18 on:** August 26, 2007, 02:51:47 pm »

I agree with Weird not working on undead and constructs. They're mindless . They're both technically made, unless of course the undead have a mind (Liches and Vampires, for example, in my opinion are okay to use Weird on).

What I don't understand is why some GMs say bugs can't have weird used on them because they are mindless. That I don't understand the reasoning to. I know in a GM's game you play by their rules, so I'm not disputing it, I just want to know where they're getting that one from

Leanthar · « **Reply #19 on:** August 26, 2007, 03:07:39 pm »

"....So using weird in a dungeon crawl against anything it works on with a group that is tactically coordinating their abilities is fine and using weird over and over while running circles and gathering spawns together to maximize XP per Weird is not ok...."

"....Maybe it's just me but I don't see a whole lot of value in debating the physics of magic and a lot of harm that can come from it...."

Spot on with both comments as far as I am concerned.