Author Topic: Get me outta here! - Rogues (Read 677 times)

Pseudonym · « **on:** February 14, 2009, 07:37:34 pm »

Yeah, i'll admit to being somewhat biased on all matters concerning rogues.

Yeah, i'll concede this is not really a high priority, even if those in a position to implement agreed upon the general concept.

Anyways, that said, almost everyone I have spoken to who know about such things have confessed rogues, as a single class, are the most underpowered combat class in game. I, as a player (at one time or another) of each and every single class able to played in game, concur. ((If someone wants to defend the awesome martial prowess of the rogue, send me a PM, i'll happily debate this with you all day but not to derail this thread))

Why then, do wizards and druids, get a free teleport to a predetermined location as a class ability .. in addition to possessing heaps of other mechanical advantages already? Is it so inconceivable, as a balancing issue, to say the single class rogue of level >X calls upon his contacts to whisk him away in the back of a hay wagon/smuggled aboard the ship/ in much the same manner as a wizard can activate his/her teleportation tome or a druid their tree-walking branch thingy?

Just an idea.

ShiffDrgnhrt · « **Reply #1 on:** February 14, 2009, 07:43:19 pm »

Well if I remember correctly, those thing only work one way to one destination, and also are Explicitly NOT for Getting away from Danger...

Pseudonym · « **Reply #2 on:** February 14, 2009, 07:54:28 pm »

Correct.

ShiffDrgnhrt · « **Reply #3 on:** February 14, 2009, 07:58:26 pm »

Rogues already have an attainable "Getaway" button... it's called "Become a ShadowDancer"

But if Rogues are gonna get something... What about Fighters? Is Devastating Crit's Str Req gonna be lowered? Nope... This is gonna boil back down into a "This class isn't as cool as another" thread again... I can see it...

Gonna be a rogue? Learn to stay outta trouble

:p

Script Wrecked · « **Reply #4 on:** February 14, 2009, 09:51:14 pm »

Perhaps the skill in this conversation is to discuss the point raised without it degenerating into a discussion of the merits of all the different features of all the different classes (each of which probably worthy of their own thread).

Regards,

Script Wrecked.

Chongo · « **Reply #5 on:** February 15, 2009, 12:12:47 am »

Quote from: Pseudonym

Anyways, that said, almost everyone I have spoken to who know about such things have confessed rogues, as a single class, are the most underpowered combat class in game. (( i'll happily debate this with you all day but not to derail this thread))

I won't derail the thread, but I disagree a bit and am happy to debate it in the arena if we have a willing GM to level. It really depends on what level blocks you're talking though.

Your idea is good (in spirit). I think every class should have more skills. And yeah, as I've said before, I think certain classes could use some de-powerments. 1d6 creatures per mass death spell for example?... But that's biting off three hundred horses of another color. Heck, it'd take 4 pages to reiterate the spell changes I'd prefer.... to perhaps make transmutation as appealing as necromancy. It'd take some serious spreadsheets to go into every class. There's no doubt NWN is broken in regard to balance... but I'll be completely honest - once you embrace your weaknesses and realize your strengths... I don't care what class you play - you're powerful.

I love rogues. I especially love them if I invest their stats wisely and patiently in expectation of things to come. Multiclass or not, I love 'em. Especially if I have corners to work off of (i.e. a fat dwarf named Fenrir) And no Fen, with DR like that, there's no arguing that you're not fat.

But no, like every other class in the game, they're not going to rate next to premonition+greater stoneskin+haste+thunderclap+wail.

I'm still waiting for your PM btw Psuedo.

:rolleyes:

Anyhow, yeah - every class should have more perks and diversity. It's a dream I have every few days. To not have a streamlined avenue glowing with airport landing lights leading towards the 'best' equation. Meanwhile we develop varying demographics based solely on the populations' response to these landing lights, as though it's one big test. And that there is an utter joke and betrayal of the correct means of substantiation.

As for your idea:

- 'Corner escapes' for rogues
- Shimmering defenses for clerical/ paladin types
- Wiles of camoflauge for rangers and the like
- etc etc.

Ideally they'd all be develope-able. But balance aside, the aspect that would be disputed is in regard to time. Wizards 'can' teleport. It's a snap of the fingers. Druids 'can'... eh... walk really fast on branches? I won't fight it...

Rogues however, I would be looking more for a dazzling escape, notably utilizing corners.

Dezza · « **Reply #6 on:** February 15, 2009, 02:12:33 am »

Quote from: Chongo

Rogues however, I would be looking more for a dazzling escape, notably utilizing corners.

What do you mean by this one Chongo? Do you mean running around a corner and using stealth? I've tried this numerous times and it does not work for me?

Hellblazer · « **Reply #7 on:** February 15, 2009, 06:43:50 am »

yeah that's a nwn bug.. But maybe something a like shinobi (ninja) would have done). Flash bomb with smoke and zip sneak and out.

Something like a quick temporary blindness for a round or two, just enough for the rogue to enter stealth and move away. Again, one that doesn't put practice into hiding, wouldn't go far

Thief Of Navarre · « **Reply #8 on:** February 15, 2009, 07:19:39 am »

Perhaps it could be a rogue specific craftable item to blind enemies?

That being said im happy with having spring attack, uncanny dodge and tons of tumble ranks so I can just run through combat unscathed

Lareth · « **Reply #9 on:** February 15, 2009, 08:36:05 am »

Well they do get improved evasion, which is great for dodging incoming danger

That said I like the idea of rogues having a transport mode.. though I can really only see that working from City to City.. not too many rogues / smugglers out there in the country to facilitate it otherwise.

s0ulz · « **Reply #10 on:** February 15, 2009, 09:11:51 am »

Quote from: Chongo

Especially if I have corners to work off of (i.e. a fat dwarf named Fenrir) And no Fen, with DR like that, there's no arguing that you're not fat.

Quote from: Chongo

Druids 'can'... eh... walk really fast on branches? I won't fight it...

I've seen some druids treewalk i.e. teleport through trees and their subterranean roots... talk about awesome.

---

On topic, I wouldn't give escapes to anyone but those with access to magic.
Teleport, treewalk, divine intervention (gsanc ideally), singing resonance...

Otherwise if everyone had an escape button, there'd be some degree of danger eliminated from every venture. As it is, those who cowardly escape, either get scorn or told to do so in order to bring a rescue party.

Jilseponie Wyndon · « **Reply #11 on:** February 15, 2009, 10:15:45 am »

Don't rogues get Hide in Plain Sight? I've seen it work on other servers.

Lily · « **Reply #12 on:** February 15, 2009, 10:35:12 am »

Quote from: Jilseponie Wyndon

Don't rogues get Hide in Plain Sight? I've seen it work on other servers.

They don't. One has to be a SD to archive that feat. [LORE]http://lore.layonara.com/Hide%20in%20Plain%20Sight[/LORE]

ShiffDrgnhrt · « **Reply #13 on:** February 15, 2009, 11:02:56 am »

I would like to again remind Everyone that the Wizard's Teleport Tome and the Druid's Stick of Tree Walking is NOT FOR ESCAPING DANGER! It explicitly states on the LORE pages for BOTH items these things are not meant for escaping combat or danger.

Thief Of Navarre · « **Reply #14 on:** February 15, 2009, 11:45:35 am »

If you want to teleport, become a wizard! if you want to walk on branches be a druid! Paladins get a really cool warhorse as well

As for rogues and transportation, they could always take the bus right?

Lord Dark · « **Reply #15 on:** February 15, 2009, 11:47:56 am »

Quote from: Hellblazer

yeah that's a nwn bug.. But maybe something a like shinobi (ninja) would have done). Flash bomb with smoke and zip sneak and out.

Something like a quick temporary blindness for a round or two, just enough for the rogue to enter stealth and move away. Again, one that doesn't put practice into hiding, wouldn't go far

You can use the Bracers of the Scout since it's unlimited use of darkness, or keep a Branderback dust quickslotted like I used to do. It gives that moment where you can get into stealth, but doesn't always work 100% of the time so it can be risky.

Hellblazer · « **Reply #16 on:** February 16, 2009, 03:39:09 am »

yep but it's not as cool as a flash/smoke bomb. Plus it's open to any classes. We are talking of something specific for the rogues here.

Just think of it.

*The Guard calls out the rogue*

G- Hey you scum what are you doing here

R- I was just looking at this rather beautiful and expensive silver chalice.. why?

G- yeah right you bum, I saw you put the other silver ware in your bag

*Rogue sticks his tongue at the guard then flash/smoke bomb, Sneak and zip out of sight*

*The guard looks rather confuse and rubs his eyes while coughing*

G- where in the bloody nine hells has he gone to now?

See see now that's cool! :p

Thief Of Navarre · « **Reply #17 on:** February 16, 2009, 07:19:24 am »

Quote from: Hellblazer

yep but it's not as cool as a flash/smoke bomb. Plus it's open to any classes. We are talking of something specific for the rogues here.

Just think of it.

*The Guard calls out the rogue*

G- Hey you scum what are you doing here

R- I was just looking at this rather beautiful and expensive silver chalice.. why?

G- yeah right you bum, I saw you put the other silver ware in your bag

*Rogue sticks his tongue at the guard then flash/smoke bomb, Sneak and zip out of sight*

*The guard looks rather confuse and rubs his eyes while coughing*

G- where in the bloody nine hells has he gone to now?

See see now that's cool! :p

Might want to try World of Warcraft(tm). The rogues on that game have flash powder which does a similar thing :\\

In all seriousness, rogues can escape pretty easy as it is if they choose the right feats. remember you should always have your party to distract things while you make your escape

Pseudonym · « **Reply #18 on:** February 16, 2009, 08:42:05 am »

Just a quick note. As Shiff pointed out (twice), the wizard's teleport and the druid's tree-jump is not meant to be for escaping a combat/dangerous situation. My original idea was meant to just add something for the poor little rogue that duplicates (with reasonable substantiation as to why) these other class abilities in a non-combat, non-life-or-death situation.

twidget658 · « **Reply #19 on:** February 16, 2009, 10:43:10 am »

Quote from: Pseudonym

Just a quick note. As Shiff pointed out (twice), the wizard's teleport and the druid's tree-jump is not meant to be for escaping a combat/dangerous situation. My original idea was meant to just add something for the poor little rogue that duplicates (with reasonable substantiation as to why) these other class abilities in a non-combat, non-life-or-death situation.

Shiff replied? Huh, I must have my filter on that blocks his posts.

I think all classes should have a means to get from one point to another in a blink of an eye, but I think it should only be for near epics (17+). Rangers and rogues sort of fall into the same category when in comes to these matters. Also, most people use these classes as 'bonus' classes only to beef up another class or combine them. That is why it should be reserved for higher levels; to reward players (rather give them something to look forward to) that stay with one class.