Movable Corpses

[Acacea]

I wasn't sure what was meant by Laldiien's first quote, either, but concede that Joyrock may be referring to dying again (and losing another strand) in the attempt to retrieve one's 'gravestone,' which will never be anywhere except the hostile location it was created at - whereas a corpse could in theory be dragged away by a survivor of the party, allowing at least a slim chance of easier recovery and no additional strand loss. If that's the case, you're still waiting.

If it was intended to replace the strand system entirely, then yes I would have to agree with the previous two posters that it simply will not occur, whether or not other systems (like movable corpses) are added to complement it.

[Dorganath]

Some clarification on that point is, I think, necessary before anyone can give a Yes/No answer to the question.

As has been said, the Soul Strand system is in fact staying (though may morph a bit in the future), so if the hope is to get rid of that, then I can say the answer will surely be "No".

However, if it is to have the carryable corpses to prevent further chance of loss in retrieving one's grave, then the person you need to ask is Nibor21, as he's got his hands on the module reins at this point. I will advise though that he is neck-deep in a rather major module update at the moment, and he may not be able to respond quickly. I would strongly suggest sending him a PM.

As an alternative in the mean time, I would suggest waiting out your reflections, which will also remove the death effects (stat penalties). I have personally RPed all the way through a reflection cycle at a high-ish level (at 10 minutes/level). Also recall that after 10 RL hours (if not spent in-game), the death effects will expire as well. It may help...it may not.  It's just an alternative option.

[Joyrock]

No I like the strand system, I would like to see that stay, what I don't like is being dead in a group of 5-6 people and there being nothing they can do to avoid you just clicking respawn like it is a single player game, it takes away a great deal away from this being a RP server.

It is  auto respawn, regardless of how prepared you were aslong as you don't have a high level cleric.

nothing like running to your corpse walking the edges, when suddenly for no reason your shot into the middle of the map and set off a spawn. that beat you over the head and cause you to lose a soul strand. with nothing the party could do because there 40 screens away you die to a game glitch.....:\\
a example that won't ever happen? it did.

But if the party could have had my body when I died, and just stopped in a near by town to get it raised, that could have all been avoided. That and I could even RP'd them saving my life and owing them one. I don't even know how to RP running around after a respawn, so I just ignore everyone.

Just so much RP could happen with movables corpses, and so much frustration avoided with it.

death to glitches as a ghost can be avoided.

this was not a do this or I quit. This was a hey how about a answer because it is important to me deciding to stay here. Nothing is more frustrating when you offer to do the work for someone and you don't give you  the time of day for a answer. it was also to show how movable corpses are a need, when it becomes the factor tending to why someone would leave, and others then it becomes a need. Not because I am trying to get my way, but the current unrealitic ancient death system is that much of a frustrating factor. I doubt this system will be changed because after three topics, and someone offering to do the work, regardless of what I do, or what I say I doubt it will be changed, but if I can, but if I can make this a need, and not a want in the eyes of those that say matters for the future of others, then it something I am happy to do.  

 It amazes me that with all the minner things done to systems, something as important as the death system has never been updated to this. that and  when I offered to do the work, which I am told, and know from XP that the number one thing that stops things from getting done is the time and work.  I have seen nothing but support for movables corpses, seen players make the topic over, and over never a say has been given on it. This I find is often away to avoid saying no, on something alot of people want, and to avoid upsetting them.

After dieing to a glitch that could have been avoided if movable corpses would have been in, lossing 3 strands 2 of them to going back and trying to get my grave. one getting stuck on a tile, other to the welcome to your death port. I don't mind the glitches, that require DM aid, if there was some way to avoid them being to costly to me the player, that did not require a DM, because I won't ever bug a DM. DM's are not replacement parts for glitches in the game. and when your up at 4 am you can't really count on them.

as far as Nibor21 goes does he even check his PM's or the forums? one would think suggestions and idea's and a topic that has been as popular as this a pretty important place to look when your in charge of what he is. if he is that busy, I don't think I can count on this for a while. Like I said I am willing to meet the project team half way on this and do the work, and make it bug free but some things are left up to them I won't continue to keep posting waiting for a reply that won't come. if they want this they can reply back, and I feel publicly to it would prevent the topic from coming up again in the future and would be the best.

I will PM him the link to this but that is all. I am sure I seem rather unfriendly, but like I said after three topics, and the offer to do the work and still no answer, after PMing this to a few people, and continuing to do try to get this through. I see nothing but support for this, I can see no reason a answer has not been given other then to avoid a no, to avoid upsetting those that wish it.

I understand the work load, and other things including RL the project team deals with, there good people and do the work for free. but I also have a RL, and I am also offering to do the work for free.

[Hellblazer]

Ok give a yes or no if this will ever happen so I can find out if I am wasting time playing here, because I can't play with the current death system. I can't I keep trying but I can't. I lost 3 soul strands at level 5 in one day, I only died 3 times.

Oh do I know the feeling. Had my first 5 dts in like a 7 to 10 days period with Njord when he hit level 10. Rain was 7 before level 12 and 9 by level 15, hes still there though, alive and fighting where he can. Funny things i could call this a family curse of sort, as Njord is the son of Rain (without knowing it). But my other char at level 15 only has 3 strand lost and those were a while ago. And beside being the brother to Rain's wife, he hos not family blood in him that ties him up to Rain, which kinda proves my theory on the soul mother hating the In'Darsus for some reason:D

[Dorganath]

@Joyrock:  He does check and is generally around, though the last couple of weeks he has been buried under a huge update. I do personally appreciate your offer to help, but you absolutely have to work with Nibor on that.  There are many reasons why we don't just offer out the module to you or anyone who expresses a desire to do work for us.  Primary among them is that it's bitten us in the past.

And for what it's worth, the death system has gotten adjusted several times over the years. I can remember 3 such adjustments that have happened in the last 2.5 years or so.  No, it's not like every other world, but it does work for us, and has worked for some time.

I know it's not a definite answer...all I can say at this point is "maybe".

[Tialle Dianesis]

I know it's not a definite answer...all I can say at this point is "maybe".

A maybe leaning to the "yes" or a maybe leaning to the "no"?

[Dorganath]

Maybe leaning toward the "I am no longer the one to ask, so I can't say one way or the other"

[Joyrock]

I have no intentions on needing the module. What I offer is to do the scripting, the coprse hodilding zone pretagged and tied into the script, the Your dead waiting zone, the script to put on any temples you wish, if you wish that added to the temples to raise people for a price. all the scripts done. you merely need to import it and tie that in on your own. which I am sure you are capable of, after that run a build and it is done. I am sure there is alittle work needed on the project teams part like tieing the respawn point into the bind locations, and the edits they wish. but a majority of the work would be done.

I said I would meet the team half way, which is all's I can do with out the module, and I have no want or need of it. working with out it removes the need for trust which removes it as being a problem, it makes the work harder, and I work blind, but it has not been the first time I have had to do that.

And I am more then willing to work blind, if it removes the stone of trust from my path. Sure it means alittle bit of scripting is needed on the project team side of tieing it in to the current system. But I hope the offer of making something that was great but hard and time consuming, needing much less man hours, and uses the most advanced system. with out the need of hak packs, would appeal as something alittle to good to pass on.

And if that is not enough to sway for the work load needed, I will offer to remove some more by doing a job for the project team, be it build something, script something, or help them with a script there having problems with.

They can name there price on that one, and I am sure a few can tell you I am a scripter of some skill so my help will not be more trouble then it worth, it is clean, easy to understand, and properly tagged and dated. with clear details explaining what is being done and how things function for those working behind me. And I can make script systems to do some things that most would believe require haks, such as PRC's (they would not fit in this system, being you use haks al'ready but it is a example)

If you want a full detailed explanation of the work done, and what would need to be done after I sent it in to be tied in and added, I can PM you it.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

We understand that:

A) You would like to see a "Movable Corpse" system implemented.

B) You can do all of the work for us that does not directly involve the existing module. (Scripting, etc.)

C) You would very much like an answer as to whether or not we wish to include a system like this.

Here are what you should know:

A) There are quite a few players and DMs here who would apparently like to see this sort of system included.

B) The one person who can say Yea or Nae is currently dealing with an immense workload that takes precedent to any suggestions, no matter how appealing.

C) That one person will assuredly work with you to determine if we include this system or not, once the next Version is out.

D) There's nothing you can really do now but send Nibor a PM with a link and a brief summary of the thread (as I really doubt he has time enough to read through this whole thing), and wait.

There you have it.

[Joyrock]

I am very much aware of my option's and what I can do. Probly more so then you, but thank you for dumbing it down and insulting my intelligence. :p

I think you forgot that I was not intrested in waiting for the next version being this version is dated to last 1-2 years.

As I said I know my options and I do not wish to discuss them further here.

I have made my offer, This person will get back to me, I will check the forums now and again, if he does not or does not in a timely manner I have a No.

being he does work for free, he has been in my shoes and such I am sure he can fully understand where I come from, having been in the same place he is I can understand where he is coming from when he comments. (which he has not yet, so please don't not speak for him)

He is not someone who can work forever, I am not someone who can wait forever. I have made the offer to repay the work and time he would need to put in by repaying him in man hours.

 I have a RL as well, and I try to stay busy. I might be working on a NWN2 module by the time he gets back to me I don't know, I will wait and see, but I think in this topic I have expressed the want/need of a answer soon.

So please when you comment next, don't brush me off as a child or a idiot which your numbered  statements addressing me does. I am not some angry child that wants my way or I am gone, I am a adult willing to work for what I want/need, and what seems many others do as well.

if a simple Yes or No can not be supplied in a timely manner, which since this has been posted, just by my self not counting the2 other times in the past they have had ample time to decide if they wish to have such things in layo.
with holding a statement is as good as a no, I have been in server politics for a long time.

If it a yes I will get to work, if it a no I will simply just leave, and oneday if they add it perhaps I will return if I am not busy simple as that.

It not a I want this or I am gone, it is a I need this or I can't play here. I play to enjoy my self, and the frustration from it cancels out the fun. and I feel leaving before I make any lasting friends to tie me down, and those that I came here with that wish to go with me is something that needs done.

I will just say I understand where Dorg is coming from, I talked to him before on this matter I was not looking for a reply from him on posting this, I was looking for the reply from the one that matters on this subject. I understand things take time, I have told people that on my own server, and I never held hard feelings if they felt that was to long and left, for not wanting to get attached to friends, when they find the server to frustrating to play on.

I came here to have fun and if I find it to much to dealing with the mechanics of the server, I will simply leave before anyone grows attached to me or me to them. Then I will continue my search for a place that has everything to suit my needs and those that go with me, if I can not find a NWN server like that I will just move on to NWN2.

Remember I came here with friends, and only because friends came. half them won't play here currently partly due to the death system and it became that way for me as well. I wish us to stay together and that is what I will do keep my group together the longer we wait the ones that like it here will wish to stay here, and grow apart from the ones that don't who move on.

So please do not judge harshly what I do mr. Zuckermen.

[Dorganath]

I think you forgot that I was not intrested in waiting for the next version being this version is dated to last 1-2 years.

One thing that warrants some clarification:

The "next version" is not going to be 1-2 years away.  When I talk about the next update, it's coming soon, and it's going to be a "point" release, not a "major" version increment, to use the more industry-standard terms.

We're currently running 3.00.4.  The next update will be like...3.00.5 or maybe 3.01.0, depending. If we do decide to add this, I strongly doubt that it will take 1-2 years to see it implemented. I know I'm not making those decisions anymore.

If I caused any confusion by saying Nibor21 was working on a "major" update, I only mean it's big, not a move to version 4.x.

[Joyrock]

One thing that warrants some clarification:

The "next version" is not going to be 1-2 years away.  When I talk about the next update, it's coming soon, and it's going to be a "point" release, not a "major" version increment, to use the more industry-standard terms.

We're currently running 3.00.4.  The next update will be like...3.00.5 or maybe 3.01.0, depending. If we do decide to add this, I strongly doubt that it will take 1-2 years to see it implemented. I know I'm not making those decisions anymore.

If I caused any confusion by saying Nibor21 was working on a "major" update, I only mean it's big, not a move to version 4.x.

that was in response to Zuckermens, wait untill the next version, which this is V3. which is planned to last 1-2 years, and is more what I believe he was hitting at.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

I apologize that you see my above post as insulting. It was merely a summary of the thread, because I felt that things had been presented in a very disorganized manner.

[Joyrock]

no worries, when we post things we can never besure how people will read it, because writting is a system that makes it rather difficult to properly display our outlook on such things.

We may write something that we think is harmless but looked at in another view it is insulting to others.

I am sorry for even looking at it in a slightly insulting way.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

What I was hitting at was, as Dorg said, the 3.x.x release - i.e. the next version update... Sorry about the lack of clarity there.

As to the rest, well, it happens. Good to hear there are no bad feelings on either side now that it's cleared up.

[Serissa]

Some thoughts on our system of permanent death:
 
 Yes, it is hard to lose a character you love.  I cried for days after my Ayla died.  On the other hand, if she had lived, I would probably never have made Ferrit or Sala, and I love them now, too.
 
 My grandchildren play here.  One has had a character die permanently.  It was an eye-opening experience for her, I think.  Actions have consequences, sometimes very permanent, very bad consequences.  I hope it will make her more thoughtful about real life choices.
 
 Our Layonara world changes and grows.  If characters are immortal, that growth stagnates.  A new character today may be the world-changing hero of next year, but not if the current world-changing heroes never die or retire.  New characters, new faces keep old players coming back for new experiences.
 
 As difficult as our system of permanent death is, I would not want to change it.

[Acacea]

To be fair, Joyrock doesn't want to take out the strand system or permadeath. He simply wants to get rid of the rather OOC gravestone business and replace them with corpses that can be moved by other PCs to safer locations, to cut down on unnecessary strand loss.

As another side note to the request though, if this were put in I imagine it would be for realism and to be able to have a safer place to come back to instead of in the middle of the horde...not to drag back to town to be raised, because I am doubting that all the little shrine clerics will necessarily be a high enough level, but maybe I'm wrong. Either way there would be a deity check, so enemies and likely unfriendlies would be out of luck.

[darkstorme]

To be fair, Joyrock doesn't want to take out the strand system or permadeath. He simply wants to get rid of the rather OOC gravestone business and replace them with corpses that can be moved by other PCs to safer locations, to cut down on unnecessary strand loss.

I was under the impression that upon "Respawn", the corpse would again become an immobile gravestone, since the character's body would have been whisked away through the bindstone system, leaving only the site of their death.

The IC explanation for the mechanics of the "ghostly" body, as I understand it, is that the character is missing a vital part of their "self", which can only be reclaimed at the site they fell.  They are not ghosts, just people who are considerably weaker and noticeably frailer than they normally are.  I can't see replacing the gravestone with a corpse in toto fitting with the established IC reasoning.

[Weeblie]

I was under the impression that upon "Respawn", the corpse would again become an immobile gravestone, since the character's body would have been whisked away through the bindstone system, leaving only the site of their death.

The IC explanation for the mechanics of the "ghostly" body, as I understand it, is that the character is missing a vital part of their "self", which can only be reclaimed at the site they fell.  They are not ghosts, just people who are considerably weaker and noticeably frailer than they normally are.  I can't see replacing the gravestone with a corpse in toto fitting with the established IC reasoning.

I believe the intention is not to replace the gravestone with a moveable corpse but rather something along this line:

On death, one's character is teleported to a "you are dead area". In the meanwhile, a corpse is created where you died. In this "dead area", you will have the option of either:

1. Wait until someone casts Raise Dead/Ressurect on your moveable corpse.
2. Speak with a "respawn guy" in the dead area. Doing that, your corpse is then automaticly destroyed, a gravestone is created where you died, and you are teleported to the bindstone you last bound at.

Kind of like the only difference is that instead of bringing a cleric to your corpse (like before), one could bring the corpse to a cleric!

[Acacea]

There wasn't really a misunderstanding there regarding its purpose, and frankly the desire to use a body instead of a grave is -my- wish, as it's a bit weird to have a gravestone magically pop up with name for all to read. Not sure where they come from. A body is identifiable and in character.