Dark Elves and the Law

[cbnicholson]

I have a question regarding Dark Elves and Divine Law.  Last night a pc dark elf openly acknowledged his race and even agreed to travel with another party member to Vehl to be registered as a dark elf at the Temple.  It was presented to me that by because of the history of dark elves, the simple open presence of one on Mistone is a violation of the law.  I'm aware that some cities like Hempstead ban Dark Elves openly, but what of the surrounding countryside?  Is it legal to arrest and incarcerate a dark elf that is following the law simply because he or she is a dark elf?   I spent some time in Lore and haven't found a single thing to back this statement up.  Quite the contrary in fact.  As stated in the Law of Layonara -
Principles of the Divine  Court

• Justice will be done in line with the dogma of Rofirein
• Each individual has a right to a fair trial
• Each individual is innocent until proven guilty
  
• Each individual has the right to appoint a representative to speak  for him on his behalf

For my primary character, Daniel, only actions and clear plausible statements of ill intent can be judged.  To him, if another character regardless of race is being truthful and following the law to the best of their ability, there is no just cause for an arrest.  Links and thoughts that would give this matter some clarity?

[Rowana]

Two things, actually maybe three. But the first two are more important.

This is a much less advanced society (or societies) then what we experience today. So remember that 'individual' is a relative term. Some races in some places are not 'people' per se but just evil, or cattle or a good many other things.

Secondly, Rofirein's Divine Court bows to the law of the land it resides in. So in each place, the law and how it is practiced depends on where His people are practicing it. I doubt every follower is expected to know every law in every land they might travel in but it's probably something that is investigated as a matter of course when a Rofireinite enters a new area. (Sort of like a Marshal checking in with the local Sheriff I suppose!)

Lastly, laws for some realms are likely in a state of development so this answer may be hard to specifically give. I won't speak to that and let Ed cover the lore related details, obviously. It is however very important to remember that 'individual' doesn't necessarily mean 'anyone who is sentient' no matter how pure and divine the court may be.

~row

**edit** and to be clear my above statements do not apply as any kind of suggested corruption within any church or wing of it. This is simply the state of things; not only how it is but also how it is widely accepted and expected to be.

[cbnicholson]

The incident I am referring to took place in a wild setting but well within the bounds of the Brelin Kingdom.  

So remember that 'individual' is a relative term. Some races in some  places are not 'people' per se but just evil, or cattle or a good many  other things.

 So its quite possible that Dark Elves are not accorded the same rights as other sentient races in that Kingdom.   Fine, but..

Secondly, Rofirein's Divine Court bows to the law of the land it resides   in. So in each place, the law and how it is practiced depends on where   His people are practicing it.

[lore]while the more civilized kingdoms like Brelin, Trelania,  and the realms  on Corsain  follow the law books of the Divine Court nearly to the letter.[/lore]

I keep running into stubs when I search Brelin Kingdom.  So obviously more work needs to be done in this area. :p  My point in bringing this up is that what I think it really comes down to is does Divine Law recognize Dark Elves as sentient race with rights under the law?

[Xaltotun]

As a player of a dark elf, it would be helpful to know which towns, cities, etc will arrest a dark elf simply for being a dark elf.

When in "civilization" my dark elf is always completely cloaked and hooded so no skin is showing, even in Fort Vehl which is supposed to be more tolerant. In Hlint - always cloaked etc, and has in fact been hunted from outside there when another character saw a group of dark elves and reported them to the Hlint Militia (great inpromptu from the gm at that time).

That said, when in the open solo or in a party, she (largely) flaunts her race and will show her skin, as much as a challenge as anything. A few characters have challenged her and it has added some excellent RP opportunities that would not have otherwise occurred. But by and large, most characters are more enlightened than societies and tend to take an individual on trust until such time as that trust is broken.

Good points though from cbnicholson.

[Alatriel]

Wouldn't that classify under playing a "monstrous race"?  If a dark elf was considered a person with rights on the surface, and not an evil monster with a heart as black as coal, then they wouldn't have to declare in their submission to play according to the guidelines of playing a monstrous race, nor would they have to hide their appearance to try to cover that they are dark elves.  If they were considered an individual with rights, they wouldn't have to hide.  Just because the PC population of dark elves isn't routinely sacking cities, raiding villages, and murdering people (openly) doesn't mean that other raiding parties from the deep aren't still plaguing the surface.  It's been noted that Hlint is openly against dark elves, and simply because Leringard houses several, doesn't mean the city itself actually says "yes, we welcome dark elves!"  Being a dark elf isn't like being a surface elf with black skin.  Racism isn't the same as it is in current society, it's not a world where everyone is considered equal.  If you ask a dark elf true to their society, they'll tell you that they ARE the individuals, and everyone else is cattle or prey.  Mothers and Fathers tell their children that if they're not good then the dark elves might come and hurt their families and then how would they feel if the last thing they did was fight with their parents over eating their vegetables or doing chores?  They are the boogey men, the monsters under the bed and in the closet.  They are the reason people are afraid of the dark.  

So if you have someone that is standing in front of you that represents evil incarnate, and they are alone, and they say "Don't shun me, yes, I'm a dark elf, but I'm not evil."  Are you going to seriously believe them?  Or would you perhaps think that maybe something so evil and horrible a monster could even attempt to tell a truthful statement?  

We all know that we are players playing a character, and we all live in a modern society where we try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but perhaps think about how you would feel if monsters started attacking from under your very feet, killing people in cold blood, with no mercy and taking what they want, enslaving some, killing any others.  These people have no faces, only shared characteristics.  Would you really be able to believe that this monster before you wasn't one of those that last raided towns and killed children?

[ycleption]

Obviously this is an Ed question, but I have a hard time believing that most places would accept divine law if it meant that monsters were given rights. In most places, it would be like giving a rabid dog a chance to defend itself against charges of biting someone.

I just want to address this briefly, as I found it an odd sentiment:

more enlightened than societies and tend to take an individual on trust

It has nothing to do with enlightenment, or lack thereof - adventurers are simply better able to deal with the consequences of broken trust than other individuals or society. Its prudent not to trust someone when there is a 99.999999% will stab you in the back. Trusting a dark elf means accepting the responsibility when an army attacks and knows the city layout ahead of time - most enlightened people will not accept that kind of risk. Dark elves as a group have proved time and time again that they are not trustworthy - adventurers may be able to accept the risk, but to society at large, its simple folly.

[Dorganath]

The incident I am referring to took place in a wild setting but well within the bounds of the Brelin Kingdom.  

Not knowing the specifics of the situation or whether or not it was PC-driven or GM-driven, it's impossible to comment fully. My understanding is that Brelin doesn't have anything like a standing army or police force.  It does have the Silverguard, but those are largely concentrated in cities and such. While it is unlikely that the Silverguard would go out patrolling for monster races to arrest as a matter of policy, it's possible that such a thing might happen through the motivations of individuals.

So its quite possible that Dark Elves are not accorded the same rights as other sentient races in that Kingdom.   Fine, but..

[INDENT]while the more civilized kingdoms like Brelin, Trelania,  and the realms  on Corsain  follow the law books of the Divine Court nearly to the letter.
[/INDENT]

That would be in the way the law is carried out, how courts are run, etc.  Rofirein's Divine Law does not exclude realms, cities and towns for passing their own laws that fit the situations of each. As long as the laws were duly created by a recognized, legal process, Rofirein and his Church would accept them as The Law and use Divine Law when enforcing and adjudicating legal matters.

Remember also that Prantz is under Sulterian law, and the Church of Rofirein has been allowed a presence to add legitimacy to that law, and they help to enforce Sulterian law according to the guidelines set by Rofirein.

So again, what Rowana said about the "law of the land" still applies and is consistent.

My point in bringing this up is that what I think it really comes down to is does Divine Law recognize Dark Elves as sentient race with rights under the law?

An excellent question, and it would be my opinion that Divine Law takes no sides on this.  Again, the Church of Rofirein would defer the specific realm or city where a crime may have been committed and refer to those laws to determine whether or not a dark elf (or any other monstrous race) has the same rights as everyone else.

Ed can disagree with me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there is going to be any One Answer under Divine Law for this question.

As a player of a dark elf, it would be helpful to know which towns, cities, etc will arrest a dark elf simply for being a dark elf.

Most on Mistone for sure, with certain individuals being the exceptions, of course.

Fort Vehl is more tolerant toward monstrous races, but that doesn't mean someone won't give them a hard time...even guards and town officials.

In the Sun Kingdom (on Alindor), dark elves would likely be shot, dissected and deep fried on sight before being fed to the wild dogs.  Actually, that's not true.  Sun residents have a higher regard for dogs than that.

So it definitely varies, and it's probably shorter and easier for the list to be where monster races are tolerated and/or permitted.

But by and large, most characters are more enlightened than societies and tend to take an individual on trust until such time as that trust is broken.

Most characters are more forgiving and "enlightened" than they should be given the times, situations and the like.  Much of our RP is deeply rooted in 21st century morality and social norms.  We, as players, get it into our heads that just because that particular dark elf (or whatever) is played by another player, and as such our characters should treat the other character with the same sort of respect and deference that we might give to the other player(s). However, in the time and setting in which we play, concepts such as gender and racial equality are not universal and in fact are exceptions rather than rules.  What constitutes a "fair trial", even by Rofireinite standards, may not be up to the standards we have today. Racial prejudice is not only widespread but pretty much an accepted way of life.

The slice of the population that are PCs is certainly small enough to fit within the "exceptions" category, but even among that small slice of the population, that one might be accepting of a dark elf, for example, should not be assumed and probably should not be quite so automatic. I always smile a lot when I witness a character representing a more typical, period-specific attitude toward any of the issues.

[Gulnyr]

This is a much less advanced society (or societies) then what we experience today. So remember that 'individual' is a relative term. Some races in some places are not 'people' per se but just evil, or cattle or a good many other things.

From [post=748392]here[/post] (apologies to those who can't go right to it):

In a realm or kingdom, any sentient creature in that realm or kingdom is subject to the law.

Whether those sentient creatures agree is another matter (I.e. even though a dragon may have its lair in some kingdom, I highly doubt it'd feel itself bound by its laws, same applies to some goblin tribe probably).

This says "in any realm or kingdom," but I read that as "in any realm or kingdom that cares about the Divine Law."  And, of course, Rofireinites would hold that position.  And that position is that each sentient individual is an individual and subject to the law, regardless of race or type.  Even dragons and vampires and giants count.

If a kingdom tacks on extra laws, that could make a difference.  They certainly hate dark elves in Port Hempstead, but is there a law against their presence across Brelin?  That would make a difference.  Whether or not such laws are really just and should be enforced is an exercise for another thread (and better IC, too).  I don't think we'll be getting the specific laws of every kingdom, heh, though specific laws that make a difference to certain groups (like the Sun Kingdom and elves, or anything special about dark elves) would be good to know.

[lonnarin]

Reminds me of a favorite quote in game

"Me loves Prantz.  They no care you pinkie or dark or greenskin... we'se ALL scum heres!  Cept the pinkdwarfs, they like extra scum with poopy on top" -Grovel to Nonac

[Acacea]

The whole point of that rage-inducing sign outside Hempstead is NOT that they are "especially banned" in Port Hempstead, but to underline the point that monstrous races are not accepted anywhere. It was no different from anywhere else until GMs decided that PC monster races were just wandering along anywhere they pleased too often without even a hint of disguise and needed a "visual reminder" with no particular reason or lore backing it until making it up on the spot when asked much later. There's a thousand threads or something on "waah dark elf in open but I can't do anything about it" and all that. So they stuck on a sign on it because it was the starting area.

It would be less ridiculous if those of other cities and kingdoms properly posted dark elf heads spiked on fort walls. As it is,  because they chose to single out only one city to represent a whole without following through on the whole itself, it is listed in threads like these as "the city they ban dark elves in" instead of the usual.

If there isn't a specific law against them anywhere, then there shouldn't be one in Brelin either. Killing invading goblins and dark elves seems more of a guilty by circumstance law of the land thing than specifically laws against being goblin or dark elf? Laws against raiding, spying, murdering, or whatever... yeah.

So a common thought process would more likely be, "since all dark elves are spying, murdering, raiding individuals..." they are already guilty. In other words, choosing to interpret a law the way they wish... or just being observing of the trend, however you want to call it, heh.

Since the vast majority of dark elves only come in preparation for raids or in full out raids to begin with, how long any particular place waits to punish for the crime they have probably already committed or will no doubt be committing soon no doubt varies, along with how they're dealt with. Some smaller areas might be kill on sight (if they can do it) while others may be stoned, imprisoned, or maybe everyone in a city is so busy trying to steal from or kill each other anyway that everybody is minding their own business to begin with, or you may just end up with some city that makes itself look silly with a sign out front addressing races that can rarely read anyway (orc, goblin, etc).

[Hellblazer]

Most characters are more forgiving and "enlightened" than they should be given the times, situations and the like.  Much of our RP is deeply rooted in 21st century morality and social norms.  We, as players, get it into our heads that just because that particular dark elf (or whatever) is played by another player, and as such our characters should treat the other character with the same sort of respect and deference that we might give to the other player(s). However, in the time and setting in which we play, concepts such as gender and racial equality are not universal and in fact are exceptions rather than rules.  What constitutes a "fair trial", even by Rofireinite standards, may not be up to the standards we have today. Racial prejudice is not only widespread but pretty much an accepted way of life.

If I may, It may also be because we as player don't want the hassle of risking offending people oocly that takes things too personally when they never were meant to be. And we generally want to have a good playing experience without the grief of always having to think, if I Rp my char as they should be, do I risk hurting the feelings of someone? Because even when you try to make people know oocly in tells that it has nothing personal with them, sometimes you get people that just don't get it.

[Gulnyr]

If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen, right?  If you can't separate IC RP from OOC reality, don't play a dark elf or any other monstrous race, and lighten up in general while you're at it.  

Besides, worrying that much about upsetting other people is a 21st Century idea, so you're just proving Dorg's point.  

While I'm at it, I would argue it's because of this pussyfoot attitude toward other player's feelings that our characters don't react appropriately and things are broken in general, but that's getting too far off topic.  Sorry about that.

[Hellblazer]

You took it on the wrong side of what I was saying. I don't mind playing them and I absolutely don't mind the heat that comes with it. But sometimes when you play the monster race properly the other side of the playing field don't take it well. Not all mind you most are more than able to take it at face value. But there are some that can't no matter how much you try to be polite about it.

In fact when I created Tyillaan, I expected to have a lot more heat than I got. It was a bit disappointing to say the least. I did get some, had a good moment of rp that happened when Valanca went off to warn the town and all. But that was that. Since then beside Nokka at first, there was nothing more that came her way. Ty is different due to how she was raised and all, but that doesn't mean the other characters would know her up bringing until she told them, if they and she had gain their mutual trust.

What I was referring to, is when you play a monstrous race that is not a scared az'attan kitten (at first like ty) brusque, smart mouthed, and hateful of some faiths. Then it's on the other side that it can be taken oocly, even if it wasn't meant to be.

But anyhow, that's all I have to say about it. It's not always due to how we view equality, but how we don't want the hassle of having to deal with people that can't differentiate IC from OCC

[Dorganath]

That's why it's important to make sure the other player is OK with the situation and the RP by using tells, PMs and any other "back channel" means of communication there may be.

[Hellblazer]

That's why it's important to make sure the other player is OK with the situation and the RP by using tells, PMs and any other "back channel" means of communication there may be.

I whole heartily agree with that. But even that sometimes isn't enough.

[Gulnyr]

This:

While I'm at it, I would argue it's because of this pussyfoot attitude toward other player's feelings that our characters don't react appropriately and things are broken in general, but that's getting too far off topic.  Sorry about that.

was about everyone, on all sides.  Dark elves, goblins, whatever aren't as undercover and underground as they really should be, but how can they be with no underground in-game?  Besides that, they probably shouldn't be trying to interact with the "normal" population of the world, but what sort of fun is that?  No one wants to log in just to go off and be alone.  So monstrous races are played in the open, conspicuously covered everywhere they go, like that's not a dead giveaway, just so the player be part of whatever is going on.  I'm not saying every player is awful at it, but it's not like life is really hard for those characters.

And the "normal" races are as huggy as ever, maybe not always openly embracing whatever "monsters" are in the group, but not really raising as much fuss as they should.  And why not?  Because no one wants to leave out the player who chose to play the character destined to be left out!  And because what are they really going to do?  Argue for an hour instead of doing something fun?  I'm as at fault here as anyone else.  It's just not worth my time to try to put a monstrous character in his place, so to speak.  So we end up with sunburned elves and ugly halflings and such instead of horrible dark elves and nasty little goblins and whatever else, and we all hang out like nothing's amiss.

If the players of monstrous characters acted like they were in danger all the time and if everyone else treated them that way so they actually were (including our friendly neighborhood DMs and their NPCs), without so much concern for player feelings, that would be a huge improvement.  I know that sounds harsh, but geez, if someone chooses to play a hated race then they've got it coming.  And that's wishful thinking all the way because it will never change.  That's why I hate playable monstrous races so much.  Here in NWN Layonara, they will never be the experience they should be for any player.

[Script Wrecked]

• Each individual is innocent until proven guilty
  

Its guilty of being a dark elf.

Burn it.

I know that sounds harsh, but geez, if someone chooses to play a hated race then they've got it coming.

"No, no. I want to play a hated race and be loved!"

[Nehetsrev]

That's why it's important to make sure the other player is OK with the situation and the RP by using tells, PMs and any other "back channel" means of communication there may be.

 
 In my opinion, any player of a monstrous race-character should already by default be "okay" with being attacked on sight by other non-monstrous race characters, regardless of whether they've earned some notability as a "good-one" through prior in-game achievement that not every PC or NPC may know about.
 
 However, that said, I don't always feel like I want to engage in PvP when I happen across a monstrous-race PC, or for that matter a shifter or mage who's transformed into a monstrous-race, or carnivorous animal form unbeknownst to my own character before they bump into eachother.  I'll still usually do it though, in order to stay in-character, regardless of whether I enjoy it or not.  My routine is usually to first give an in-character verbal warning/ultimatum to the other PC, warning them to leave or violence will ensue.  Unfortunately, most such PC's instead of acting with prudence and/or fear as one might expect them to act in areas where the NPC populace (though unrepressented in-game) is hostile toward them seem to instead have the tendency to 'laugh it off' or otherwise lightly disregard the warning and simply stand their ground or further instigate things to the point where violence ensues.  Anyhow, I think I'll stop here before I open up a whole other can of worms.

[SteveMaurer]

The fundamental problem with saying that Layonaran civilizations are all fundamentally racist is that it conflicts with its own cosmology.   The whole idea of saying that "99.9999999% of dark elves will stab you in the back" is that it flat out isn't true.    As I've seen multiple times in game, Az'attans are so dedicated to peace that they will allow themselves to be tortured to death rather than raise their hand against another, even in seeming self-defense.

Given that Az'attans healer/pilgrims are, according to Ed, quite common, I see no reason why racial bigotry would be ever considered viable.   Instead, we would much more likely have religious bigotry, which is just as typical a kind of response to low-intensity conflict, if not more so.

And in this regard, I'm not at all certain whether the world team fully thought through just how world changing a spell like "Divine Relation" truly is - almost more so than cheap and easy healing.

Just about anyone who comes under the slightest suspicion (the Layonaran equivalent of a traffic stop) would almost certainly be an immediate subject of the spell.   The result would almost certainly reveal Shadonites, Corathites, etc., without much need for any investigative ability whatsoever.    And why go further than that?   Worshiping Pyrtechon would likely be a crime punishable by death.  You don't need to catch them in the act.

Certainly there is the Lucinda/Toran split, but if ever truth needs to be determined, the priests of almost any two different Gods can pinpoint just about any worshiper of any other God with almost perfect accuracy.      A Dark Elf (or any elf who dresses like a bandit, covering their face), would naturally be questioned and Relationed.   And the only cleric who wouldn't immediately be able to tell a Az'atta worshiper from a Mother of Darkness worshiper would be a Xeenite.   [ But everyone knows Xeen goes both ways.    ]

And that isn't even talking about the fame of PCdom.   People who risk their lives touching the stones are rare.   People who survive are rarer.   If I were a noble with even a drop of sense and/or paranoia in my head, I'd go way out of my way to make a whos-who of every local survivor.  These are people you want on your side, not your enemies.

The Dragoncalled/Stonebound  have, at bare minimum, one more life than a cat, and thus can gain skills taking on dangers that others would only dream of.  I'd trade this knowledge with other rulers in other towns, and keep an eye on all of them.   If a dark elf Az'attan like that even stepped a foot on my territory, I'd be having people all over it finding out her history, having clerics surreptitiously check her out, etc.  

In addition, there is no reason why the Dragoncalled/Stonebound themselves would not be naturally clubby.   They have a searing shared experience, are often companions, and routinely depend on each other to save each other's lives.   It's a regular Band of Brothers (and Sisters), which more than accounts for any "Enlightenment" about each others outward appearances.


Now everything I've just said here is made with the following caveat: this isn't my world, so it doesn't have to make sense the way I would expect it to.   (Heaven knows, it certainly hasn't in the past.)     But until there is a definitive ruling, I think this is at least as reasonable an interpretation as the "hurr hurr kill all darkies" type of RP, which to me seems just profoundly stupid.

Because while you're killing the Az'attan, the human Corathite would be slipping dragon poison into your wine.

[Pseudonym]

Who needs divine relation?

Someone with a hood and a name containing an apostrophe = dark elf.