Author Topic: Expertise Oddities (Read 319 times)

Gulnyr · « **on:** December 05, 2007, 11:27:49 pm »

A little while back, I noticed that Expertise and Improved Expertise were turning off when Jennara was hit, and thought maybe it was just a glitch that would be fixed by a server reset. Since then, I've seen it happen a couple more times, including today on West, which I know was reset only a few hours ago.

The enemies she has been fighting haven't been anything fancy that could, say, HiPS to make her go flatfooted or anything like that. The feats turn off very specifically on a successful enemy hit. I tested with Flurry of Blows and found that it did not turn off when she was hit. It seems to be only the Expertise feats that turn off mid-combat from a successful incoming hit.

Has anyone else seen this happen, or have any idea what might be causing it?

Chongo · « **Reply #1 on:** December 05, 2007, 11:48:46 pm »

Well, something is flatfooting you or making you move I would think. This may seem silly to ask, but are you activating another active combat feat (only one allowed at a time) like flurry?

Otherwise... strange.

Gulnyr · « **Reply #2 on:** December 05, 2007, 11:56:31 pm »

I know what you mean about the moving. Sometimes against big packs she'll get shoved around and stop fighting, but these Expertise problems haven't involved any of that. It happens even one-on-one with nothing like that happening.

I also made sure I wasn't doing anything else to turn off the feats by entering combat and crossing my arms, just watching. All's normal until something hits her, when Expertise (or Improved Expertise) turns off, but she keeps fighting otherwise as if nothing happened.

*shrug*

Unfortunate that it's a defensive feat, heh.

lonnarin · « **Reply #3 on:** December 06, 2007, 12:55:37 am »

i've found that he expertise and imp expertise feats can be tricky with my defender bjornigar. Whenever you kill what you're fighting and kill whats on your other side, it usually stays intact, but whenever you have to take a few steps in between new opponents, then if tends to turn itself off. This can be problematic with size large opponents whith longer reaches than medium or small fighters, so it's kind of a constant clicking game to keep the expertise modes up when all these longarmed beasties are wailing on you. This will become incresingly problematic wwith "corridor blocking" tactics where you try and face a few that can fit in the hallway, and there is a gap between the enemie's frontline and the enemies secondary reinforcements. I remember in haven using expertise, whenever I killed the 2 or 3 ogre zerkers in the front, it would drop as the next few edgesd up into melee, even worse is this problem with the defender stance. Expertise is sort of similar tot he defender stance that in any case that your character has to move or isn't engages in melee for a full round or even a second, then it drops and doesnt automatically pop back up without another usage of a stance. It might even be a little extra tough for your character being size small if reach is any consideration.

Also what I've found is that when you expertise, THEN charge, it stays up whn you run up to the first foe and keeps up as you engage melee on it. (VERY useful for when charging archers!) However if you charge then expertise during the charge, it doesn't hop up until the second round of melee.

It's a tricky stance, my best advice to give is to keep a stern eye on the expertise imrpoved ac icon, and be prepared to hit that button a couple times per spawn. In between foes where your character auto-charges to get in close, it usually will fail, but if you hammer the expertise button every time it drops, it will pop up again. Hope this makes sense and helps.

Gulnyr · « **Reply #4 on:** December 06, 2007, 11:08:00 am »

Yeah, I've had the "short arms syndrome", where Expertise turns off because there are no more enemies in reach, and I've had it drop because Jennara has to move to re-engage. I'm usually ready to do exactly what you're suggesting because I expect it to happen just that way. I even try to turn Expertise on before charging to make sure it's up right from the start.

The problem I'm seeing now, though, is completely separate from that. Jennara can be one-on-one against a Halfling, or surrounded by Halflings, so that reach and movement aren't factors, and a single incoming hit will turn off the feat.

I'll do some more checking to see if it happens everywhere all the time, or if it only seems to occur in certain locations or at certain times.

Gulnyr · « **Reply #5 on:** December 11, 2007, 11:35:24 pm »

Update!

I've been watching closely during combat, and even spent a while a few days ago fighting naked (completely - no clothes, rings, boots, or anything else equipped) against different enemies to help increase the chance of hits on Jennara, and used Expertise in some situations when I normally wouldn't, all the while trying to find out what caused the weird behavior. So far, the effect hasn't occurred again. I'm declaring that a Good Thing(tm), but I'll keep watching for it to happen again.

Filatus · « **Reply #6 on:** December 11, 2007, 11:40:49 pm »

I always turn on expertise/power attack before I charge. After that, I keep my finger on the quickslot f9/f2 in case of actions cancels.

Hellblazer · « **Reply #7 on:** December 12, 2007, 02:28:59 am »

I've used expertise a bit with Sil'via in the last few days since I created her. on hit or shifting place for combat, (taking one or two step to the next one) didn't turn off the feat, in my case anyway.

Gulnyr · « **Reply #8 on:** December 16, 2007, 06:43:01 pm »

Update 2!

A few minutes ago, I saw the weird Expertise-turns-off-when-Jennara-gets-hit thing happen on Alindor in the Bandit Hideout against a lot of Bandit Chiefs. I was using Expertise, and each time Jennara was hit by those enormous swords the feat would turn off. She never stopped fighting or appeared flatfooted, and there was never an instance of a moving NPC shoving her over so that the feat turned off. In fact, the very last Bandit Chief standing, with no need for pushing and shoving, got one of the six hits against her and turned off the feat.

There is a lot of lag right now, and I suspect that is because of a big cluster of folks gathered for Khuren's trial, so maybe lag is a factor in the Expertise oddness.

I'll keep watching and collecting more info on this.

Filatus · « **Reply #9 on:** December 16, 2007, 06:44:26 pm »

Does the leader wield a two-handed weapon?

Gulnyr · « **Reply #10 on:** December 16, 2007, 07:35:54 pm »

They all had Greatswords. They were all Bandit Chiefs.

Filatus · « **Reply #11 on:** December 16, 2007, 08:58:00 pm »

Could be that Jennara is nudged out of reach for a fraction of time, because the range of the greatsword is much bigger?

The combination of a medium sized creature with two handed weapon vs a small sized opponent might be the key. Just a guess at this point.

Gulnyr · « **Reply #12 on:** December 16, 2007, 09:06:18 pm »

I'll start keeping track of the weapons that hit, too.

Thanks.

stragen · « **Reply #13 on:** December 16, 2007, 10:20:31 pm »

Guys,

This problem with Expertise happened to Jin Lun Lee while combating mummies in Storan's crypt. Each time he was hit expertise deactivated.

I can confirm this is a new behavior, as it hadn't occurred before.

The mummies use unarmed attacks. Jin Lun Lee is a medium sized creature. The mummies are also medium sized.

Stragen

Gulnyr · « **Reply #14 on:** December 16, 2007, 10:28:12 pm »

Update 3!

I think I got it.

I went to grab some bodak teeth, and tossed on Expertise. It was turned off by hits, so I scrolled up to make sure what hit, and it was the Skeleton Captains each time. They use Greatswords. Two-handed from a Medium creature. I go collecting teeth fairly often, though (that's where I've been doing some testing), and they don't always turn off Expertise, but still...

To check some more, I ran to the ogres near Fort Llast and tried Expertise. When they hit, it turned off. Large creature with a fairly hefty axe...

So off to the forest near Haven to duke it out with some Halflings and Dwarves. Expertise turned off quite a bit there, but three times it was just from being shoved about by a mob of folks in the lag.

So, the weapon type and creature size didn't seem to matter. I started thinking of other variables, besides lag, and thought of Jennara's clothes. In the previous three, and earlier today, she was wearing the Robes of the Broken Hope. It's easy to see when she gets hit because it fires off the Slow effect. So I swapped out the Robes of the Broken Hope for Colbalt Reinforced Clothing and went to the same three areas. Expertise was not turned off when she was hit by anything.

So, it seems to be something to do with the Robes of the Broken Hope firing off the Slow spell. Why it would turn off Expertise and not Flurry of Blows... *shrug* Just in case that's not it, I'll keep watching and paying attention to all the variables.

Oh, and I guess maybe Stragen might have some clue whether I'm right or wrong, heh.

Filatus · « **Reply #15 on:** December 16, 2007, 10:31:27 pm »

I'm guessing Jin was wearing the very same robes

Eight-Bit · « **Reply #16 on:** December 18, 2007, 12:58:50 pm »

You can't cast a spell and be under the effects of Expertise, I believe. It's reasonable to assume the slow effect is what is causing it, but I never realized the On Hit: (property) effect caused you to actually "cast" the spell.

Honora · « **Reply #17 on:** December 18, 2007, 01:36:05 pm »

So THAT'S what's been happening! Ye gods, I just thought it was supposed to shut off when you got hit...

Thanks Jennara, that's been bugging me for months.

stragen · « **Reply #18 on:** December 18, 2007, 04:23:14 pm »

Quote from: Filatus

I'm guessing Jin was wearing the very same robes

Yes, Jin wears Robes of the Broken Hope.

Hellblazer · « **Reply #19 on:** December 18, 2007, 09:07:03 pm »

wont have that robe since Sil'via is no monk, but my question is, since its an inherit effect of the robe and not a spell being casted by the pc it self, it shouldn't deactivate the expertise no?