Question on Rogue Feats/Skills

[Lord Dark]

I have been thinking about what feat Tod should take when he reaches 9. He does not dual wield and he does not use sheild since he does not have the feat. I want to be able to use the shield for the AC bonus, such as a buckler or another small shield since it is light weight. I made a test character on the solo version and it shows that Tod will be able to take either spring attack, the ability to use a shield and another one I thought would be good was lightning reflexes. His opponents do not get attacks of opportunity since his tumble is so high, about 21 with everything on and the DC is 15. Should I take Shield proficency or spring attack, maybe lightning reflexes if he hasn't taken it yet?

Also I was thinking about the bluff and persuade skills. Tod has a -1 in both, and since he's a rogue, maybe he should have at least a little in one or both? His lore is high enough, a potion of lore allows him to identify most items. I still want points in tumble for the AC bonus for every 5 points and the usual hide, MS, Spot, pick lock, UMD and maybe search. Should I stop lore and put it in either bluff or persuade and if so...which one?

Thanks!

[Acacea]

Hey, most of the answers you are going to get, especially with regards to your skills, are "whatever suits your character." There are a thousand ways to be a rogue, what is Todd? Is he working on lying and persuading? Is he familiar with the lore of the world? Is he working on detecting the deceptions of others through personal experience? Is he a terrible liar or simply never lies? Does he prefer other means than diplomacy to get people to do what he wants? Etc. Whatever suits your character is the only right way to go, and no one knows your character like you do.

The same goes with feats, but there are several people around that can argue mechanical cons/pros with you if you so desire, hehe.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

I'll go ahead and speak as one of those people who can argue mechanical cons/pros with you (and all day long, too). (The section on RP will be in a moment.)

Shields are REALLY nice for a pureclass rogue who enjoys melee. Lightning Reflexes is worthless for a high-Reflex, high-Dexterity character. Well, not useless, but near enough to it that I would never, ever bother. Spring Attack in NWN is useless with a character who has Tumble (who isn't in Heavy Armor) - the only thing it would be good for is a prerequisite for Whirlwind Attack.

Tumble is a sweet skill in NWN. Get it. Does it fit the character? No? Maybe he should work on that.

Bluff, persuade... These are skill that are solely reliant upon the character - is it reasonable for him to have it? Rogue doesn't mean the same thing for more than one character. A rogue can do or be nearly anything. The Lore skill represents what your character learns when you're not actively playing him, so... Does he seek out nifty new info? Does he spend days and weeks in libraries? Does he just focus on making jink? You get the idea. Potions of Lore, by the by, are NOT easy to find on Layo.

For RP, Acacea really does have it, far and away. It all depends on the character and what he's like... You haven't given much of an idea as to that, so there's not much more I can tell you in that regard. *Shrug.*

[Lord Dark]

Ok, I'll ask a few more people about the skills, though I'm pretty sure I'll take the shield feat since he rarely ever uses a bow. Thanks

[osxmallard]

I don't think lightning reflexes is a waste for a high dex character, it makes the reflex save even better and when you combine that with the other feats rogues get/can take it sure does make you nearly impossible to hit with anything requiring a reflex save.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

with anything requiring a reflex save.

Which is...?

I mean, I agree that it CAN be useful, but it has much, much less impact on gameplay than, say, Dodge. (For the same reasons as Spring Attack, I wouldn't take Mobility unless you need it for a prerequisite.)

Though, if you have Defensive Roll, or whatever it's called, it becomes much more useful. Along with Epic Reflexes.

[osxmallard]

Which is...?

Chain Lightning
Sunbeam
Fireball
Flame Arrow
Great Thunderclap
Meteor Swarm
Ball Lightning
Cone of Cold
Flame Strike
Ice Dagger
Web
Gedlee's Electric Loop
Alantha's Lightning Storm
Epic Spell: Hellball
Inferno
Call Lightning
Storm of Vengeance
Delayed Blast Fireball
Fire Storm
Lightning Bolt
Firebrand
Grease
Mestil's Acid Breath
Scintillating Sphere
Combust
Wall of Fire
Earthquake
Flame Lash
Entangle
Blade Barrier
Sunburst (spell)
Incendiary Cloud
Burning Hands
Alantha's Oscillating Orb

[Acacea]

Saves are never a waste... just not necessarily as good for the money compared to other feats you could be taking. And Defensive Roll with or without Epic Reflexes is not as useful as it could be...generally if you are getting hit as a rogue, you are already dead... by the time you really need it, it doesn't matter if the last blow is half damage or not, you're still dead. It could save your life one time out of one hundred maybe, but I wouldn't put it up there on my list of "most useful feats," heh, except to qualify for Epic Dodge.

[LordCove]

I agree Epic Reflex's is pretty pointless to take, since an Epic Rogue's Reflex should be pretty Godlike anyway... and there's so many other handy Epic Feat's to be taking.
And Defensive Roll... yep, not much use unless your looking for Epic Dodge, which is so handy.

But Acacea's right.... pick what Feat's best suit your character, not what makes him more of a toughie. Of course... that's choice.

If your char's supposed to be a good talker, able to persuade the pants off a guard, Skill Focus and Epic skill Focus in Persuade. Although not useful in battle, heh, it's a lot of fun when you can start coaxing people to do things for you or get information out of them.

If's he spent twenty years dodging his wife's fireballs... Improved Evasion ( another handy one). Handy since, if your caught in the middle of a fight and surrounded, your mage can throw Fireballs at you which wont hurt, and you can turn around and berate them later for singeing your cloak.

UMD is useful.. not so much for using Scrolls... since it requires quite a high amount for that, but just to be able to use certain Class/Race specific items often found.

The one Mechanic's part I will advise on... Will saves.
Bane of my existence. Anything you can do to up them.... Iron Will... I'd do.
Somethings just have to tap you on the head and your fending off Stun and Deathmagic and blind and a whole host of other magical effects.

[stragen]

I once had a pure-rogue Layo character, who was impersonating a knight, so high bluff skills.  But I also had to burn feats on martial weapon proficiency (initially a two handed sword), then later he would have needed amour, and shield feats.  

A cool concept but mechaninally it would have been more effectively simply to take 5 levels of fighter.

If your character is becoming involved in melee combat, then it makes sense that you gain some fighter like abilities.  Perhaps even 5 levels of fighter before 20.  This is mechanically a big advantage over being a pure rogue.  More attacks, and better attack bonus.  Shield, armor and martial weapon feats at first level, plus fighter bonus feats.  Also very little 'rogue-like' qualities are lost with only 5 levels of fighter.

It is for this reason that there are few pure rogues.  

My suggestion: If you are going to make your rogue like a fighter, and take fighter feats, why not just add a few fighter levels?
 
Or if you like a challenge recreate my concept above.

[cbnicholson]

Stragen is right, I ran numbers for my rogue, Benjamin.  The best way to become a better fighter, mechanically, is to take five fighter levels for the feats.  Now if I could find someway to keep duel weilding and get my AC above 25.  I'll second what Lord Cove mentioned about will saves..definitely the bane of a rogue's existance. *makes a mental note to take iron will*

[Lord Dark]

What I was planning on doing was taking shadowdancer levels. Does that change everything since he can just hide when a fight starts going bad? It would have been better if I mentioned this in my first post...I have been thinking it over an I will make another character today and check all the feats and skills.
 
 Edit- It would help Tod I did take some feats that will help his Will saves since his is -2?

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

A melee SD is great, by the numbers. Everything I said above still holds true.

[miltonyorkcastle]

A shield feat is alright, especially if you use a buckler, but as an SS, shields seem kinda funny. If you only plan to use one weapon, go ahead and take the knockdown feats. As an SS, the ability to pop out of nowhere and knock someone on their rear end, then disappear again- well it just has to be useful. It just has to be. :p

Make sure you have a weapon focus feat and improved crit with that same weapon. Mind you, I'm strictly talking about being better in a fight. This has little to do with your overall ability as an adventurer.

Spring attack is pretty much useless to you, as has been said. If you take any of the save-increasing feats, the general rule is to maximize what you're already good at, so lightening reflexes is a better choice than iron will or great fortitude.

Also, if you're going for SS, you may want to consider the skill specialization feats, say, for Hide and move silent. The point is to be able to avoid wearing magic items that increase your hide and MS and let them be high enough on their own. Use your magic item slots to increase your AB (either through dex or str), AC, and resistances.

Since we are talking mechanically empowering your character, that's my advice.

[stragen]

Rogue/Fighter/Shadow Dancer should be good.
Definitely take the knockdown feat next level if you haven't done so, consider it as tripping up the baddies.

[Hellblazer]

I'll speak for my experience here. I have a 15 rogue 3 shadow dancer at the moment. The combination of my feats gives him cripling strike (takes -2 of str with each sneak attacks on the enemy cumulative) 5 attacks per round (yes it's possible) sneak attack of 8d6 at the moment, he is *nearly* invulnerable to fireballs and firebrands (so all of the other spells of the like he would be too) and has a decent ac.

Ambidexterity
Armor Proficiency (light)
Crippling Strike
Darkvision *
Dodge
Evasion
Hide in Plain Sight *
Improved Evasion
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Mobility
Point Blank Shot
Quick To Master
Rapid Shot
Shadow Daze *
Sneak Attack (+1d6)
Sneak Attack (+2d6)
Sneak Attack (+3d6)
Sneak Attack (+4d6)
Sneak Attack (+5d6)
Sneak Attack (+6d6)
Sneak Attack (+7d6)
Sneak Attack (+8d6)
Summon Shadow *
Two-Weapon Fighting
Uncanny Dodge I
Uncanny Dodge II
Uncanny Dodge III
Uncanny Dodge IV
Weapon Finesse
Weapon Proficiency (rogue)
Weapon Proficiency (simple)

* = Shadow dancer feats

I find him very useful and able to actually solo when I feel like being alone, not that I prone soloing, but sometime when you just want to wine down, it's fun.

Knockdown feat is good, but is str based, so if you are aiming on having a high ac using tumble and dext, your strength is going to be med. Of course there are items that can be crafted or purchased that will help with that, but personally, I prefer my 5 attacks vs having to take feats of knockdown and imp knockdown, to be able to knock a giant on his butt. Plus if you go Sd you get hips that helps you with your sneak attacks.

Thats my own thing, might not be suited for you, but I'm having fun with him, both in rp and adventuring.

One thing to note, even if you have hips, the fact that you are engaging in combat may result in you still being seen even if you go poof. I have personally kept his hide and ms skills, i think its 2 from being maxed out and they still can see me pop out. But that's mechanics nothing much you can do about it, just means you have to stay on your toes more.

[Script Wrecked]

Knockdown feat is good, but is str based, so if you are aiming on having a high ac using tumble and dext, your strength is going to be med. Of course there are items that can be crafted or purchased that will help with that, but personally, I prefer my 5 attacks vs having to take feats of knockdown and imp knockdown, to be able to knock a giant on his butt. Plus if you go Sd you get hips that helps you with your sneak attacks.

Knockdown shouldn't be strength based. It should be based on your attack roll, which uses your attack bonus. If you have Weapon Finesse, Knockdown should be using your Dexterity modifier.

Of course, NWN is prone to bugs, so this may not be the case. Not having played a finesse fighter or rogue recently, I can't verify this, but this is what it should be.

Regards,

Script Wrecked.

[Hellblazer]

Duh, you're right, serves me right to post at 3 am when I should have been in bed 4 hours prior lol

ah yes that's why I thought it was str based. For a rogue whose ac is maxed by his dext but doesn't have WF, the ab used for knockdown would still require the str mod. Hence why I thought it was str based. Now even if you have WF, but you are using a weapon that is heavier than Light (and from the approved list), you lose the WF ability and your ab returns to using str mods.

[Lalaith Va'lash]

On Lalaith (14 Rogue, 14 Shadowdancer) I have long debated training to use a shield.  I never went that route though, since by that time she reached epic, I was concentrating on dex feats so that she could get epic dodge as soon as possible.  Epic Dodge being my favorite feat ever -- it was worth it.

I have also considered knockdown, and that may be in her future since self concealment seems forever out of reach.

On the HIPS bug Hellblazer mentioned.  --Its like the Invis/GS bug where sometimes if your still targeted the creature can attack you.  I found that this is much much less prone to happen if your in a group - since the creatures can retarget when you disengage. You do have to have your hide and MS high enough that creatures can't see you as well, or HIPS also won't work.

Lal is a dex based character, and weapon finesse has also been a really good feat to have.  (No fighter levels here!)

Beyond that, don't over look your spot and listen skills! A good scout should be able to reveal others of their kind!

[Hellblazer]

One thing to note about hips, if you engage it around a corner, even if the line of sight is broken, they will still continue to persue you.