a possible answer for the drow problem

[AeonBlues]

I don't know man.  There are goblin PCs.  The reason you can kill a goblin that comes into hint and get away with it, is because the NPC goblins that come into Hint have short shwords equipped, and they are using them too!  They start attacking any person or ox until they are put down.  If a unarmed goblin messanger came into town, delivering a message from the goblin leader, he would not be killed.  Just forced to leave after delivering said message.

It seems to elude everyone in this discussion that there are 3 drow gods in the patheon.  Ca'Duz, Vierdri'ra, and Az'atta.  One of these gods is good aligned, enemies with all the evil underdark gods, and on good terms with most of the good ones.  She is the shining example to all Drow that they can turn from evil, betray their masters, and live a life of good.

So, the drow are more complex then "They are all evil monsters."  There are good drow in the underdark, living in secret and making secret plots to promote their good agenda.  Their are drow living on the surface, that follow the path of Az'atta, and provide an example that being good is possible.  Thogh is it more difficult.

Quite frankly there are many very well played dark elfs in the PC comunity.  Ranging from LG to CN.  I would say that about 80% of all drow PCs I come across worship Az'atta.  One I know worships Folian.  The rest either worship an evil drow god or no god at all.

Yes most dark elf PC's you meet are good, and they act that way.  This is not bad RP, this represents the fact that there is a good dark elf goddess in the patheon, and she is represented mostly by the heoros and adventures.  And a small city of undead, but that is a story for another time.  One out of a thousand dark elves are good, and mostly to be found in Hint, go figure.

AeonBlues

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

One out of ten million is a closer estimate, Aeon. As far as your average commoner knows, Drow ARE all evil monsters.

If we allowed Pit Fiends to be player races, would some of them suddenly be good, and the sheer terror their image invokes in ANYONE simply fade out?

Sadly, I think so.

If a goblin came into Hlint, most people (read: most commoners and NPCs) wouldn't care if it had a weapon out; how long does it take to draw one, or simply bite someone's face off?

The problem arises when ANYONE expects people to be accepting and slow to judge. There's no process of judgement with the evil races for VIRTUALLY ALL of the population. If it's one of the "evil races," it is a monster, and will kill you if you don't kill it first. There are exceptions to this, yes, but VIRTUALLY NOONE KNOWS THIS.

Until we get a WL Drow, I can't think of any reason it should be any other way.

[Pseudonym]

The view of my character, a priest of Aeridin, Valdemar Harredsunn, is that he knows drow are generally evil.

A big word that, 'generally'.
Even 'overwhelmingly' evil is not 100%.
It still means that there are some who are not.

Even if it is only a handful in a race of tens of thousands who defy the trend, isn't it better to be CONTINUOUSLY disappointed than to not trust any of them? Valdemar believes on judging every individual on deeds alone - it strikes him as irrelevant what the overwhelming trend may be about a race. This is his same perspective/attitude be it teiflings, goblins, giantkin, orckind or for that matter, aasimar or some other 'generally' benevolent race.

Maybe that come across as 'bad RPing' on my behalf? Maybe there are others who share this view and that's why they treat the drow in and around Hlint as they do ...


PS. My other character, Arkolio's opinion? Kill em all!

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

However, Pseud, your priest is a very small minority, even among the teensy, teensy percentage of the population that is the adventurers.

It doesn't make it bad RP... Your character is specific about extending an olive branch towards everyone; it's not just an apathetic "Oh, another drow" thing.

[Niles09]

Well I dont see the problem in the few good drows around, because they are few. Sure, the good drow PC's outnumbers the evil ones, but dont forget about the NPC's. How many active good drows do we have at the moment? 10? That would be fine, considering the millions of evil drows down in the underdark.

About people not acting hostile against drow, yeah they are supposed to do that, but I wouldnt force them. How far RP can go differs from person to person, some of us see it all as RP, some prefer to keep it comfortly meaning avoid verbal assualts on other characters.

[LynnJuniper]

Well Just speaking from the out of Drow perspective and personal experiance

1) Rhynn's too stupid to judge people (unless they're enchantresses/enchantors, then you're automatically on her blacklist), This goes for Drow , Teiflings, Wemics, you name it. It lands her in some stupid ... she just -doesnt learn-. And thats mainly because...well..I like laughing at Rhynn's grief and stupidity...

2) Meriam's scared to death of Drow. Nuff said. Teiflings don't scare her unless its extra noticable. IE: If you're skintone is a bit off she may not notice but if you're walking around with Horns and a Tail spitting planar Cant you're going to get a bad reaction.

3) Laereth is the problem....her Elven heritage puts a basic Hatred of Drow within her, but as a paladin of Aeridin she is taught not to judge. She is at constant battle for this reason with the ways of her race and the ways of her deity, and therefore attempts to ignore the Drow problem completley....

So Like Niles stated, you shouldn't force the Rp. Sometimes people just have reasons for acting the way they do twoards others, and you can't really set a standard otherwise. Yes, I agree "Monster Races" Should be generally distrusted, but you also can't assume people don't have a sound reason for trusting them off the bat. They may just be idiots *hugs Rhynn*

[Niles09]

oh and another thing. Why should people assault drows? Say a 8 lvl ranger comes into Hlint for the first time. There on the benches he sees a drow. Now, everything he knows is drows are evil - what to do? Assualt him verbally? That would be ok if it wasnt because the drow is dressed in an platinium armor, a glowing amulet hangs around his neck and his armor bears many many scars from battle, obviously he is a very experienced warrior. Now how smart is it to provoke someone that obviously can kill you in seconds, and you think he is plain evil meaning he would, after your opnion, not take provokes "lightly"? Ofcourse the elf might think that he would start attacking people anytime anyway, but the chance of survival is still much much bigger if you start running at that point. It would ofcourse be absolutly ok, that and equal assualted an equal.

Point is: It might be bad RP to ignore another race but.... Hiding behind the non existing PvP is just as bad.

EDIT: Doh! screwed my finish line... What is the opposite of PvP called?!

Point is: It might be bad RP to ignore another race but.... Hiding behind the fact-that-you-cant-be-killed-by-another-players is just as bad.

[Weeblie]

The drow in question wouldn't in fact sit in the middle of Hlint. Drows has attacked Hlint before, so I seriously doubt any non-disguised drow would be able to freely "sit in the town" before a large mob of citizens started to gather with pitchforks.

I'm not going to write a long thread of "why this and why that" here now, as I don't think it will make any real difference. Arguments for why people generally should dislike/hate drow has already been laid out. This kind of start to feel like a "Intel vs AMD" thread... Hehe... The ones who love Intel will still do it, and the others will still stick to AMD. Though, in a "like drow/dislike drow" way instead.

[Niles09]

Again.... The farmers wouldnt stand a chance, I doubt they ever would get the will to do such a thing. And I think it would be a bit harsh to ban the drow PC's from the benches of Hlint

[Weeblie]

The poor drow would be in a no-win situation. If he raised a finger against the farmers, he would have an army and a half of paladins and other "good" people on his back. If he's not... Well... I think he would prefer to run out from town rather than getting burned. Most people really dislikes to be on fire!

One could say that what the farmers are doing would be against the law and things. But I doubt the rouling council would actually punish them for doing that. Though, Leanthar or EdTheKet or some other GM would probably have to confirm/decline this.

Edit: Wow... This thread -is- getting old... hehe!

[Niles09]

You have to see it from the farmers point of view! Sure the drow is good and wont kill them, but they dont know! If they think it is evil enough to be a serious thread I doubt they would think it would be scaried by them or run instead of slaying a few of them, before the guards come.

And by the way Intel RULES!... or wait.. dont I have a... AMD IS THE ONE!

[Allorian]

One must take in consideration the experiences of each adventurer, their upbringing and divine beliefs. As Aeon mentioned, if a drow exposes their deity and that deity is allied with your own, there is no reason why one would not be willing to make friends with that PC or NPC for that matter. The concept of religion as in RL should be considered strongly in RP. As each religion of the RL world has its own alliances and/or enemies as would religions in Layonara. Another thread analyzed the ideaology of religious hatred; and such would make a great deal clarity. Many devout followers of the deity would be commiting, in a way, a blasphemous act to disdain a follower of an allied deity. RPing religion should be considered greatly when analyzing other characters actions; yes I see many people suspicious of the Drow, it is an obvious occurence considering the majority of them are devious and malicious. However, if you see a drow waving a flag of A'zatta and you are a follower of an allied deity, you may want to think differently about what actions you take with this Drow in RP; no character wants their patron to turn their head because of blasphemy.

Furthermore, the concept of drow in Hlint. We must remember that Hlint's population IS 10% DROW. These drow have earned their right to stay within the city walls. Beastmen have not, simply put. Though they may be a bit mistrusted, when 1/10 of a cities population is a certain race, characters should not go around telling other characters how to act. The law of Hlint has not changed; if your name is not Garnet, you have no right to tell someone what to do. I cannot express how annoyed I can sometimes get when I am told how to RP my own character. Now understandably, drow are most likely to be mistrusted by a newcomer to the town of Hlint, however, those who have been in the city for some time know should know the laws and know of the drow population residing in the town.

Just adding my observations....Mostly some annoyances with being told how to play my own character, that was my rant :-P.

[Gulnyr]

Allorian - 9/25/2006  4:36 PM

One must take in consideration the experiences of each adventurer, their upbringing and divine beliefs. As Aeon mentioned, if a drow exposes their deity and that deity is allied with your own, there is no reason why one would not be willing to make friends with that PC or NPC for that matter.

Why should a god's feelings toward another god translate into automatic behavior in that god's worshipers?  You are suggesting that Jennara should dislike Freldo for no other reason than because Rofirein dislikes Ilsare.  Where is the justice in that?  You are suggesting that a follower of Aeridin, sworn to protect and preserve life, should never ever heal a Shadonite who is bleeding to death, since Aeridin and Shadon are enemies.  Which is more important, preserving life or poking Shadon in the eye?

You also seem to be suggesting that racial tensions should be ignored, or at least severely minimized, in favor of religious tensions.  Racial tensions are an important part of the roleplay.  Playing a Drow in Layonara should be similar to playing an Arab in a Medieval England game world.  No matter how good the Arab is, a lot of Englishmen are going to hate him because of his race.  He may have a few supporters in the church if he has converted to Christianity, but that won't make everyone automatically love him.  The vast majority of people will still judge him by his race.  So it is with Drow.

We must remember that Hlint's population IS 10% DROW.

This is entirely wrong.  Look at this LORE page.  Elves are only 5% of the population.  Drow would fall into that category, and probably don't make up a very noticeable chunk of that 5%.  Starting from the false concept of 10% Drow population in Hlint negates the rest of your paragraph.

[Weeblie]

Yes, the poor farmers would probably run away. But then... I doubt the guards would allow the drow to stay in the town, spreading fear among everyone.

Check lore: http://nwn.layonara.com/Hlint

The drow isn't 10% of the population if you want to trust that page. I think you are mixing the terms "Player Controlled Population" and "Real Population".

Disclimer: I'm in no way trying to tell how people should play drow or how non-drow people should react. I understand the fact that the adventuring people are already the "very few ones" and that the tolerance against drow is probably much higher than the rest of the population. I actually play a quite drow (or generally, "bad people") friendly character. But, say that I had 5 characters. I would surely make 4 of them to "distrust/hate drow"-types.

Edit: Woops... Too slow...

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

The argument of "Oh, the battle-hardened Drow would mop up any little farmers" is ridiculous for the idea of a Good Drow. Or even any Drow that doesn't want to be promptly fried to a crisp, tracked to his Bindstone, and repeatedly slaughtered until the Soul Mother swallowed him whole.

Sure, there are Drow that have non-Drow friends. Even powerful friends.

But even if Farmer John shoved a pitchfork through Jimmy the Drow's chest, you can't say Farmer John is in the wrong. Farmer John, like every other Hlintite who could hold a weapon, has fought in the innumerable attacks by the Drow on Hlint. Drow are the ENEMY. Drow are MUDEROUS AND EVIL.

Just because you can't see Farmer John, Brewer Steve, and Seamstress Mildred, because of the limitations of NWN, doesn't mean they're not still there to grab thier torches and pitchforks against a threat to thier lives, families, and homes.

Most commoners won't know any more about Az'atta than Baraeon Ca'Duz. Sure, there are tales, but the idea of a GOOD Drow? Preposterous. Bedtime stories, even more than those about Storold besting armies of undead and defeating a Lich in single combat.

[Allorian]

I do not even know where to start other than by saying, wow.

Anyway, to not get into a flame fest (which seems to have alraedy started) my appolgies about the 10% drow figure; I had heard a World Leader speaking of Hlint's population and misread the dwarf figure (horrible vision, I am sorry).

Now to the deity statement. Chracters who have taken vows to uphold their deities values, (heal the sick, aid the weak, etc.) should follow the oaths that they have obliged. This would encompass healing ANY who are in need if that is their oath. You heavily misinterperetted what I was attempting to say. I am backing the virtue of deity relations. The only terms I can put this in is well (sorry if I offend), Catholics, protestants and jews have the same basic beliefs, therefore those who follow that belief have a common connection, no matter their race (in more recent times). Christianity is also a convert religion, which activily seeks out and attempts to convert others to their cause. This doctrine has provided missionaries with the freedom to aid any who are in need, no matter their background (religious, criminal etc.). Now what I am saying is, although one's race may be different or minor religious differences, once one discover's another's religion, common ground is formed. No, one does not have to trust the other, however in certain doctrine this trust is highly regarded (love thine neighbor).

If that was not a good enough example, another would be in the ancient times.

Playing a Drow in Layonara should be similar to playing an Arab in a Medieval England game world.

Yes, playing a drow would be a such, but how about if we take into consideration that Arab is a second generation Catholic. He would be treated MUCH differently than an islamic arab, turk or persian. The fact is yes, racial relations are indeed a great factor in roleplaying, but I am backing what AeonBlues is stating.

I don't know man. There are goblin PCs. The reason you can kill a goblin that comes into hint and get away with it, is because the NPC goblins that come into Hint have short shwords equipped, and they are using them too! They start attacking any person or ox until they are put down. If a unarmed goblin messanger came into town, delivering a message from the goblin leader, he would not be killed. Just forced to leave after delivering said message.

It seems to elude everyone in this discussion that there are 3 drow gods in the patheon. Ca'Duz, Vierdri'ra, and Az'atta. One of these gods is good aligned, enemies with all the evil underdark gods, and on good terms with most of the good ones. She is the shining example to all Drow that they can turn from evil, betray their masters, and live a life of good.

We sometimes forget living in a westernized country how strong religious values actually are. In a medieval setting (such as Layonara) wouldn't religion be so as well? Take this into consideration before you respond. The gods are aligned with each other for specific reasons, and their followers should follow their dogmas.

Furthermore I would like to post this as well. (I do not know how to link on this forum, tried url, link, hyperlink etc.) http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=23626&posts=28&start=1

Yes, ultimately my argument comes down to how a person wants to RP their character. However, these posts are for all those people out their who get tells asking why, based on your race, are you communicating with a drow?

[Acacea]

Stephen_Zuckerman - 9/24/2006  8:21 PM

One out of ten million is a closer estimate, Aeon. As far as your average commoner knows, Drow ARE all evil monsters.

Yes.

We are not forgetting religious values, nor trying to strictly speak for all characters, nor have I really seen any example of a flamefest, though some posting styles simply don't get on with others.

The attitude towards drow is simply severely underestimated and overdefended. It is not our opinion, it is a fact of Layonara, of the opinion of the MAJORITY of the populace, that has been posted many times and by many people, and only defended by those who want to defend their specific character interactions and justify the whole with them, which does not apply.

Saying, well, attacking someone in a civilized society while they're just standing there is against the law!

For one, Hlint is not really civilized. This is shown by how the drow generally does sit there minding his own business, without anyone even trying to do anything anymore. In any civilized town or city, it is the drow who are not welcome and this is forgotten over and over again.

It's not "eluding everyone posting" that there is a good drow goddess. We're not idiots. We're just repeatedly restating (and clarifying for those who do not understand) the official view of the NPC populace and, while leaving the specifics of PC interactions up to the individual players, encouraging acknowledgement of that when forming character attitudes and roleplaying.

I'm finally bailing on this thread and covering my eyes and loudly singing to avoid seeing any new posts

[Gulnyr]

Allorian - 9/25/2006  6:15 PM

Anyway, to not get into a flame fest (which seems to have alraedy started) my appolgies about the 10% drow figure; I had heard a World Leader speaking of Hlint's population and misread the dwarf figure (horrible vision, I am sorry).

Don't worry about it.  I don't think anyone is trying to flame you.

Now what I am saying is, although one's race may be different or minor religious differences, once one discover's another's religion, common ground is formed. No, one does not have to trust the other, however in certain doctrine this trust is highly regarded (love thine neighbor).

I think you are missing two important ideas.

First, consider your real-world religious example.  People of the same or similar faith may very well find common ground with each other rather easily.  Still, racial differences and prejudices have and do often overcome religious similarities.  People who claim to be of a certain religion will attack others of that exact same religion for nothing more than racial differences.  Religion does not automatically trump race, not even in the Middle Ages.  In fact, religious agreement alone sometimes means nothing.  During one of the Crusades, crusaders from Western Europe stopped in Constantinople on their way to the Holy Land, noticed their Greek, Christian allies in the city had a lot of good stuff, and decided to attack those allies and plunder the city rather than go to all the trouble to fight Muslims.  Even among the most religious, there is more than religion being considered.

Second, Drow are known to be insidious and deceptive.  How can a character be sure that Drow wearing the symbol of Az'atta is really a follower of Az'atta, and not simply disguised to hide his true intentions?  Paranoia?  Maybe.  Maybe even justifiable paranoia.  

Yes, playing a drow would be a such, but how about if we take into consideration that Arab is a second generation Catholic. He would be treated MUCH differently than an islamic arab, turk or persian.

But ONLY by those who really knew the second-generation Arab.  Consider the second-generation Chinese on the west coast of America during the 1800's.  Were they actually treated that much better than new arrivals from China?  

The gods are aligned with each other for specific reasons, and their followers should follow their dogmas.

The gods' attitudes towards each other are beyond the understanding of the mortal characters.  Some of the reasons could probably be guessed, but others... *shrug*  Who knows?  Do you think characters aren't playing their religions correctly?  Do you think a Katian and a Dorandite should never be friends, since Katia is unfriendly toward Dorand?  Would such a friendship be against Katia's dogma?  Should a Goranite Gnome who had survived an attack by Drow on his village automatically befriend Az'attan Drow just because Goran and Az'atta are allies?  Would it be against Goran's dogma if the Gnome avoided and distrusted all Az'attans?

However, these posts are for all those people out their who get tells asking why, based on your race, are you communicating with a drow?

Every character should have a reason.  If your character accepts or rejects people according to their religions and cares nothing for race, perhaps he's a bit of a fanatic, but that is his reason.

[Allorian]

I never once mentioned that religion should be the only cause of tension or acceptence. However, for some religion should be a means. Also, I could go more in depth about historical fallacies and points, however such would detract from the purpose of the thread.

I will quote myself for my response to the inquery about how others should reat each other... I simply write that I am tired of being told how to RP and these are my reasons why my character acts the way he does.

I know that Drow are hated; I have a drow as well and I expect others to mistrust his presence. Stephen is right in saying that the majority of the populace is uneducated and would not know the difference between a good and evil drow. Yes, when I play I expect to ragged on as a drow. And I am not saying everyone be nice to the drow. I guess I am just going to have to beat what I am saying so I no longer have to post:

My past two posts are in regards to mean being frustrated with people sending me tells in game about how to play my character.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Hey, I love how Raine's played, personally. Even with all my knowledge as a player, I had NO clues that he was a Drow until I spoke with you OOC. *Chuckles.* You give no hints that your character's a Drow, so... Bada-bing, bada-boom.

Many characters have specific RP reasons for such-and-such. However, many of those are based on misinformation... Such as the quoted figure of 10% Drow for Hlint's populace. (Just for an example.)

The problem isn't those who have RP reasons to do whatever. It's not even, so much, those whose reasons are misinformed.

It's those who don't put thought into it, or simply refuse to accept that people aren't always nice to you just because you're a PC.

Then again, those sort probably aren't reading this thread.