Author Topic: a problem with the new resting... (Read 3272 times)

Eight-Bit · « **Reply #80 on:** August 23, 2007, 10:59:07 am »

Quote from: LynnJuniper

Alright, level 25 is when the last of a caster's spells maxes out (Correct me if I'm wrong) But It takes to level 25 to get Greater Magic Weapon to +5. Perhaps it should be considered to cap the resting time here as well; to give some sense of equality?

Level 40 is when the last spell caps out if you think in terms of durations and what not. Also, I think Fire Arrow works without a cap. A few others.

I get your point though, I'm just being a jerk about it.

lonnarin · « **Reply #81 on:** August 23, 2007, 12:23:54 pm »

On the nature of learning, preparation and study.

Personally, I would have thought that the highly trained wizard would spend LESS time memorizing spells, not more. When you learn your times tables for the first time, it takes a while to get them straight.. you count on your fingers, you need to prepare. A Math PH D just recites them as a reflex. He doesn't need to stay up all night cramming.

Now maybe you can object and say "but those 9th lvl spells are like advanced calculus!" Well, yes ok... that's all well and good, but why does it take 10 minutes less time for a lvl 18 wizard to study lvl 9 spells than a lvl 28 who studies the same darn spells? Wizards don't gain many more spells/day after a certain point, most of their spells are capped. If anything, the rest timer should start *decreasing* after 20th lvl.

Xirion · « **Reply #82 on:** August 23, 2007, 12:37:36 pm »

Er...yes, but this is supposed to be a balancing issue, to incraese the RP and to change the gameplay... not a biological one

Dorganath · « **Reply #83 on:** August 23, 2007, 12:42:06 pm »

Yeah...if we want to go down the biological route, then it takes several months to cross a continent, weeks to months to take boats places, a "normal" rest period is something like 5-8 hours long and pretty much gets required every day, etc. It we want to go down the biological route, then staying awake for 3 days straight would have penalties to all attributes, skills and saving throws. Do we really want to go down this road?

EDIT: Wizards always have to study spells, no matter how good they get, from the lowest cantrip to the highest, most powerful spell ever. Clerics still need to pray for their favors from their deities, no matter how old or how many levels they have. It is and has always been a game balancing issue

lonnarin · « **Reply #84 on:** August 23, 2007, 01:00:14 pm »

I think we're over-citing that term here whenever we enjoy a new update... "increase RP".

If you have a good time at a campfire with a bunch of good RPers while waiting for the rest click, the RP that you enjoy is solely from the skills and interactions of those RPers, and NOT a byproduct of how long they were waiting. Those same people would be good RPers if the rest timer was 10 minutes or 60 minutes, RP in this instance is totally detached from the temporal continuum. So please, thank the PLAYERS and their RPing skills for the good RP that you encounter, not the unrelated rest timer. The rest timer does not RP. It affects gameplay dynamics like pace and difficulty and nothing more.

lonnarin · « **Reply #85 on:** August 23, 2007, 01:02:41 pm »

Quote from: Dorganath

It we want to go down the biological route, then staying awake for 3 days straight would have penalties to all attributes, skills and saving throws. Do we really want to go down this road?

Yes actually. I find it very creepy and unbalancing that fighters and rogues NEVER have to sleep and just keep wandering around, applying infinite healing kits to themselves without suffocating under the bandages or passing out from exhaustion. At least spellcasters get "tired". This is unbalanced.

Halfwit Genious · « **Reply #86 on:** August 23, 2007, 01:06:35 pm »

Quote from: lonnarin

Yes actually. I find it very creepy and unbalancing that fighters and rogues NEVER have to sleep and just keep wandering around, applying infinite healing kits to themselves without suffocating under the bandages or passing out from exhaustion. At least spellcasters get "tired". This is unbalanced.

I'm gonna have to agree with that one...

Odranoela · « **Reply #87 on:** August 23, 2007, 01:08:08 pm »

@lonnarin

Don't know how you play your rogues, mine rests normally and doesn't suffer from insomnia or any affliction of the likes...

Xirion · « **Reply #88 on:** August 23, 2007, 01:18:01 pm »

That only spellcasters suffer is wrong. what about paladins (not the spells they use I am talking about the feats) Arcane Archers, Babarian (rage), Dwarven Defender.... and and and... They all have abilities that are limited to x-times / day.
Not only casters have that. Most Arcane Archers have a split where the caster class only has the rwuired 5 or a few more levels. So they suffer from short spell duration of weak spells and their special abilities are limited aswell.

The other point is, what would your mage say when a fighter stands infront of him and says "Now its your turn, the badages are troubling me to much and Im not any longer able to fight" and holds out his sword to you... I think your mage would suffer even more.

Besides that, Caster classes should be the most difficult classes. Thats D&D. (and I think most other PnP's aswell)

ycleption · « **Reply #89 on:** August 23, 2007, 01:31:38 pm »

Quote from: Xirion

That only spellcasters suffer is wrong. what about paladins (not the spells they use I am talking about the feats) Arcane Archers, Babarian (rage), Dwarven Defender.... and and and... They all have abilities that are limited to x-times / day.
Not only casters have that. Most Arcane Archers have a split where the caster class only has the rwuired 5 or a few more levels. So they suffer from short spell duration of weak spells and their special abilities are limited aswell.

Well, I think the point is that caster classes are dependent on their use per day abilities, not just that they have them...
Once casters have expended their spells, in many cases they don't have much combat use (not saying they can't bandage and whatnot), whereas a paladin can still inflict smiting of great dole, an arcane archer can still rain arrows upon the enemy, a barbarian can still charge blindly into battle, etc...

Not really weighing in on one side or the other, I haven't played enough since the update, but...
*shrug*

Xirion · « **Reply #90 on:** August 23, 2007, 01:41:39 pm »

Whats about staffs, scrolls, potions, granades and what ever.
A caster class is thought to be deepended on close combat fighter to block them and not to reign down spells the whole battle over and over, but when it is neccesary.
For bosses or a really tough group, the fighters, babarians and waht else can not/hardly handle.

Meizter · « **Reply #91 on:** August 24, 2007, 02:50:16 am »

I think I'll chime in again on this subject.

First of all I would like to say I believe that the rest timer is not a measure of how long you use to prepare, as some have stated. The rest timer is the time between rests and hence time when you are awake and acting.

I think you could argue the use of an increased rest timer as this: over time the character becomes (more) fit, used to travelling long distances and having extended fights. He/she tires less easily and hence does not need to rest as often.

I'm not sure this image works, but I'll try to explain in terms of a marathon so we can all somehow relate. At first when you start running you cannot run the entire 42 km, but in time with training you will be able to run longer and longer, and eventually run the full marathon. Think of this in terms of rest timers, then we may say that we "train" i.e. level to be able to do better and better and as our shape improves we do not need to rest as often.

With regards to "the biological road" I would say we do not wish to go down that road. I think the effects of "the biological road" are far worse than having to ignore that a fighter does not need to sleep. As a layo hour is approx 2 RL minutes let me examplify:

Resting: you will be sitting incapacitated for 12 to 16 RL minutes
Travelling: sailing from Lor to Arnax, let us assume a week layo time, you can resume play after 5 hrs 36 mins.

I know this is extreme, but I think sometimes you have to find the extreme example to prove a point. On an large scale Layo time is great, but when on the "small scale" i.e. running around adventuring, then you are already suspending reality. Accepting you can traverse a continent in a night is no different from accepting that the rogue or fighter in your party does not sleep while travelling. You may come close, but you cannot mimick RL entirely, we have to use our imagination and let the small things slide. Or at least that is my opinion.

Skywatcher · « **Reply #92 on:** August 24, 2007, 03:14:56 am »

Quote from: LynnJuniper

Alright, level 25 is when the last of a caster's spells maxes out (Correct me if I'm wrong) But It takes to level 25 to get Greater Magic Weapon to +5. Perhaps it should be considered to cap the resting time here as well; to give some sense of equality?

The key factor in determining a cap is the times per day issue to me. You keep getting more spells per day up to 20 so even though you have longer between rests you have more spells to use between rests so things kind of balance out. Once you stop getting spells/day or uses/day on abilities the increase in rest time means you have fewer things to do over time so that is a net reduction in capability even though some things get stronger and have longer duration.

LynnJuniper · « **Reply #93 on:** August 24, 2007, 08:59:43 am »

That's true, but around level 20 two things happen:

1) Influx in INT Gear. Emeralds (if you don't have them already) and certain other drops.

2) And not long after, Great INT I - IX

While you don't naturally get anymore spells/day (correct me if Im wrong here again please, I'm terrible with D&D/NWN) I think you get more from the more INT gear/INT you have

EDIT: Replace INT with CHA or WIS as applies >_