a problem with the new resting...

[Gulnyr]

10 damage is a good hit for Jennara at any time.  Don't be too hard on "low" damage.

[merlin34baseball]

Hee, doesn't Jennara get like 45 attacks a round though?

[jan]

yes, I think most of my problem with the this is that it hurts multiclassed casters the most.  The time spells last is based on single caster class.  So say your 20th level, with a 13/7 split.  Well your spells last 13 minutes, but you cant rest for 20.  If you were say a 10/10 Mage/Cleric you are even in more trouble, 10 minute spells all around and 20 minute rest timer. So... one third of time or worse time you are very vulnerable. And when you have a character who absolutely has to have those buffs to survive, your going to end up running for your life every couple of battles or so, or stay in the back plinking monsters for 10 HPs damage with a bow.  Sorta drastically changes how one has to play their character doesn't it?

Welcome to the life non-spellcasters had to live for a long time .

[lonnarin]

I don't really think that making people stay awake or closer to a campfire for longer periods of time yeilds a net difference in observable RP any moreso than sleep depriving a person before dinner makes them more likely to tip their waiter better, or having people wait in traffic makes them drive any better.  Were citing sociological effects while manipulating an unconnected variable here.  Downtime does not yeild RP.

If left alone to their own devices, players who RP consistantly will do so regardless of sleep variables, and others will have longer OOC conversations in the gap.  How often they are forced to stand still only changes their gameplay via increasing idle time.  They will use their idle time exactly as they have used it before.

As for balancing the spellcasters argument, They've been balanced enough as it is. (especially considering how many enemy spellcasters for some reason have infinite castings/day and dont seem to drop the spell components they would need to cast such spells)  Making our rest intervals longer doesn't make being a mage any harder, it just makes it more annoying and time consuming.  They'll still cast the same spells per day and limit them according to X amount of encounters regardless of the timer, and now they just have more downtime in between the bouts.  The only result is now the pace of gameplay is slower and less enjoyable.  Now we have to sit around longer in between bouts and spend time doing what we could have chosen to do of our own accord, sitting around to stare at a fire.  Now my time having fun is less and my time sitting afk is more.  While my bladder might benefit, my enjoyment factor per hour most assuredly does not.

After 3 years and 18 levels max, I'm tired of the slow road.  I'm a feeble old man jogging uphill soaked in mollasses and the people at the top of the mountain are rolling boulders down on me, telling me I run too fast.  They are driving italian sports cars and complaining that the trip isn't slow enough for them to enjoy instead of stepping out of the car to walk and smell the roses on their own accord.  That's what it feels like to me.

[Skywatcher]

Downtime does not yeild RP.

I have seen many counter examples to this claim in just the past two days.  It may not be true in all cases but in many cases the extra downtime is resulting in more RP.  I am not trying to be argumentative,  We just have to be careful what assumptions we make and be sure that we don't make policy on perception but on evidence.

[Marswipp]

I wonder if Kenelm's role will be more understood now... :\

[k41n]

So, let me see here, increase resting, take out magic and thats supposed to encourage RP?

[Skywatcher]

The no magic part is just one small region that serves the purpose of providing opportunities for classes that they didn't have before.  I think, if I am not mistaken that magic items were increased in power during this update.  So for the rest of the world there is more magic.  But yeah, less resting does mean more RP in many cases and more challenge in all cases.

[miltonyorkcastle]

This is not PnP, to be true. However, it is based on PnP. Wizards, and even sorcerers in PnP rely heavily on items that are very difficult and costly to make in order to keep up. You're a weak 10th level wizard if you don't have at least 10 wands and 20 scrolls at the ready. The reality is you just don't have enough magic to get you through a day's worth of adventure and still have some for back up.

I have always found it very strange that NWN caster's don't really need magic items (magic items are useful, but not necessary). Scrolls and wands don't take spell components to cast, yet they are hardly used. True, in NWN scrolls are considerably less versatile and less powerful than in PnP, but even so, they are still very useful.

Of course, the CNR bit is rough, and I have to admit that I am no fan of CNR, and only do it because of how useful it is, and because of how difficult some items are to purchase.

My point is, that with the new rest timer spellcasters will benefit much more from the use of wands and scrolls (and even a staff or two), essentially meaning that fighter-types won't be the only classes that rely heavily on magic items to keep up. Also, it means that spellcasters will benefit from being more well-rounded themselves, taking the time to learn a combat move or two, or simply how to be effective as something other than a spell slinger. Moreover, it opens up more versatility to the spellcasting classes, in that it makes sense to decide whether you want to be a pure spell-slinger, or be primarily a slinger with some training in other things (yes, this can be accomplished without multiclassing). In short, learning how to function when you can't rely on magic, either because you've run out or because of a dead magic zone, will help define your "place."

As a note, I play a multiclassed fighter/wizard and a sorcerer. Certainly, Steel's spells, even with extend (which I planned to take before this rest timer took effect), don't last long enough to make him the wall that powerful spellcasters become, but they are still useful. That's the trick, really, learning when and where what spells are useful. Learning not to rely on magic so much as your own wits. Spellcasters are supposed to be the hardest classes to play, not the easiest. As it is, I hear too often that someone has become bored of their spellcaster because things are too easy with them.

All casters, but especially multiclass casters will learn not to buff with every buff they have, but to pick and choose which buffs they need for which places. Some casters I notice already do this, but most I see simply apply every buff they have for every situation. I think you'll find, if you pick and choose based on what information the scouts bring you about an encounter, then you can have multiple castings of the protections you need instead of wasting the spell slots on buffs that never get used. More castings of what you need mean you can last longer.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

lonnarin,

I adore your characters. They are fascinating, unique, and always a blast of fresh air. For heaven's sake you were a hilarious GM back in the day. Which is why I'm so surprised you're worried about getting over the next XP hump. I wasn't aware that was the primary source of fun for you on Layo. Catching a level rocks, but what fun is it if that's all there is for four hours at a time? I need a little drama, a little intrigue, and a little mystery to go with the grind. To me, that's adventuring. But hey, like you say, it can happen on the way. You don't necessarily need downtime. Or do you?

The reality is that in order to have a conversation, you need to have time to type, and to have time to type, you need to have at least a pause. If the RP is happening without a conversation, you still need to have time to type, because emotes have to be typed as well. Do you need a ten minute pause? Not all the time.

So what do you do during the downtime if you don't feel like conversing? Keep adventuring. So you have to make your magic stretch ten minutes longer. Sounds like an even better adventure to me. More challenge equals more adventure, in my opinion.

And really, how often does a 15th+ lvl character rest every ten minutes when you have more than two people on an adventure? In my experience, I only have to rest every ten minutes when I'm soloing (bloody platinum), or with just one or two other people. In a party of four or more 15+ characters, lasting 15-20 mins isn't all that hard, even without taking a break.

For reference, I too have limitied IG time, and VERY seldom get to play an actual four hour block. I usually get about an hour, then I have to log, then maybe another hour, then I have to log until the next day. I have two jobs, I'm in graduate school, I have a four month old daughter, and I'm have duties as a GM and with LORE. I feel your pain. =P

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So, after this long address, let me reitterate:

1) My main PC is a multiclass caster. My other PC is a pure caster (who has point blank shot, rapid shot, and weapon finesse :p )
2) I have limited playtime.
3) I am in favor of the extended rest timer for the reasons listed above.

[twidget658]

Some of the best RP I have seen is between battles. No fire needed, just walking will strike up some very fun and interesting RP. Walkng places is a chance for people to tell stories and take pot shots at each other. Especially, if someone messed up during the last battle, you get a chance to harp on them about their fighting skills or something.
 
 Did the battle decrease? Yes, but the fun and RP was increased exponentially. If your goal is battle, battle, battle, then the timer is not very inviting. If your goal is to continue battling and getting CNR with RP in there, the timer is not noticed.
 
 I am not a fast typer, but in the transients, I like to strike up conversation. I am almost the last in the pack. I have learned, that if I type, run, click in the text window again (does not erase my previous text) and then finish what I was saying when I catch up to the party.
 
 I have been trying to get spells for the ranger class for ever, it hasn't happened. The ranger class has spells that are short in duration and this doesn't help, but I am still in favor of the timer.

[Falonthas]

im henry the eight i am henry the the eighth i am i am
oh sorry
there are wards that last for much longer then per lvl
sure the super ones are per lvl so make save them for the big dragon instead of the little kobold
use the ones that are by the day wisely as well
and there is nothing wrong with plinking from time to time

[Polak76]

Gday all.

Although Im rarely online these days, I still pop in from time to time and keep in contact with many others.  Over the last 3 to 4 years I've been on Layo, I've never seen people level as fast as I do these days, especially since the beginning of this year.  I'm talking about level 1 to 15 in a few months, maybe faster.  To me that is simply ridiculous.  In the old days the main way to level was to go on quests, some people attending 5+/week.  Good luck to them.  I may have done something similar if there were as many in the aussie time zone, however, we took advantage of our 1/month and that was it.  At least by going on the quests we're interacting and RPing.  These days people level fastest by hacking and slashing and maybe its due to the imminent ending of Layo for NWN in the near future that has prompted people to go on a xp farming spree and race to hero status.  Whilst I dont really care about the next person, when new players or existing players join our groups during the times we go on a hunting spree, we get comments like 'you guys are great, at least you RP AND hunt!'.  That leads me to believe that Dorgs comment on the Hack/Rest/Buff has been abused to a point that makes Layo a RP/Action server.

Now with this new resting system, its going to put a real halt on this rapid levelling and Im amused to see what happens from here.  Comments like, 'some areas have mad xp' and 'some areas have mad items', are another example of people abusing the resting system.  I do however, feel sorry for some multi-classed people as they will be much weaker but hey, all the more reason to co-ordinate with good groups.

Ive spoken about this change to resting with others for a long time and personally Im glad its here.  Now a fighter becomes more important and in entices group play over soloing.  The only thing now is you may see an influx of monks or druids (shifters).  
Lets think of some other good things it will bring.  Scrolls, Potions and Wands will become more import, thus the demand for these will improve the economy.  The extra difficulty will make people step out of their comfort zones and try something new.  Mages might even want to start selling their extended buffs as a service.  Bandages and healing will become even more important and another selling point.

In my experience whenever something changes to make life seemingly more difficult, people eventually find a way around it.  It happens all the time and this is no separate circumstance.  We'll have a lot of arguing over it but in the end, once the dust settles people will find its actually more enjoyable for the right reasons.

[AeonBlues]

Wow, you're still going...

1) It's not changing so you may want to get over it.

2) If anyone can show me on paper that this yields more experience then the standard Belinara areas where you are mass hasted and with spells, then I'll be impressed... because it's impossible.  Even with the feeling of great success in there, you're netting about one third of what you would in the same amount of time in a magic zone with the same CR.

I did say it was beautiful looking.

I like it as my character is not a spell caster.  I think it is a fun and challenging place to.   I was throwing out some opinions...  I fully admit, and you can quote me on this, that my opinions are flawed at least twice as often as my facts.  I just worry about other people being happy and not feeling left out.

I am sorry if I offended you dude.  

AeonBlues

[jrizz]

Well on the two big points in this thread (big no magic zone and rest timers) I have to say a big YAY!

I knew the update was going to be fun but I had no idea that it would be this fun.

The trips in the no magic zone have not yielded any more XP then a east run used to. The RP that the rest timers have given us the opportunity to have has been great during the time we were "bashing". Heck I dont think I can even use the term "bashing" anymore.

Here are some of the positive effects of both on my PCs:
My fighter is needed
I have had to rely on barb rage
Almost every encounter has to be well coordinated
NO ONE is running out in front "charging"
Spawns have turned groups back WITHOUT total group wipe out
Ranger/archer giant killers are soooo needed (wish I still played one)
Missile weapons are actually useful

So all in all I am very happy with the changes. Even the drops that at first had my eyebrows all up (LOL) I now understand.

[Nyralotep]

And rogues are very useful in the no magic zones too, although Zup does miss shooting monster casters in the eyes.

[Pseudonym]

Rogues have found a usefulness somewhere? Rue the day fools, Arkolio knew his time would come ....... eventually!!!!

[lonnarin]

Perhaps I am being too overcritical too early in into the change before giving it a good trial... I'm mostly just stressed from my lack of time away fromLayo with work and school, and that it looks like the pacing of the gameplay has slowed a little.  I admit, with extra planning, characters can push through the added minutes by using extention feats of casting spartanly.

I think though that fighters would enjoy the realism of this update far less if the balancing were complete and only a certain number of healing kits could be used per day before a script stopped them and said "Mummification is not the answer... see a cleric".

[minerva]

"Mummification is not the answer... see a cleric".

 
 Neither is having enough Healers Hug belts to encircle the globe.....

[Skywatcher]

I have been thinking about this and talking to some people in game about it.  I know we should wait a bit before we change anything but it occurs to me that maybe there should be a cap on the rest timer.  The reason I mention this is that after 20th level in a caster class you never get more spells and even though buffs last longer your combat capability will decrease as you level since it would have to be spread out over a longer and longer period.  Many abilities have X/day limits that don't change as you go up past 20th so again leveling past 20th reduces your effectiveness over time.  It seems that the net result after 20th level is a penalty for leveling past 20.  I am thinking that as a compromise between more RP and not penalizing characters for leveling that the rest timer should cap out at 20 min to avoid what I think is an unintended consequence.  This would also allow mutliclasses to get better as they level since the mulitclass could eventually aproach the effectiveness of the pure caster when leveling past 20.  Just some thoughts from an informal survey.

[LynnJuniper]

Conversely, Layonara could de-nerf the level caps they put on every spell, and therefore make more than about , say , three useful again.