Irritated by meta-gaming!

[Talan Va'lash]

I keep all development materials in a folder on my desktop.  I don't keep a public dev thread, and I don't read dev threads because, while I'm capable of seperating what I know OOC and what I know IC in that regard, frankly, I don't want to.

I find it hurts my immersion if I have to step back and think "do *I* know this or does my character know this?" and I hate to be second guessing whether my reaction is in any way tainted by that OOC knowledge.  Pausing and reconsidering this taints my reaction by not allowing me to just impulsively say what my first impression of what my character would say is.

And most of all, I think its a whole lot more fun to spend the time RPing finding out something I truly don't know yet, rather than spending the time to learn something *I* already know but my character doesn't.

If I'm ever in a situation where I need to have dev information available to GMs for approval of some request, I PM that information to them.

-TV

[Lucius]

Ne'er - 3/3/2006  8:01 PM

Let's play devil's advocate a moment on the name issue. It bothered me when I played a character that NEVER introduced himself by his real name. People would say: "Hello Ne'er!" and I would have to correct them in a tell saming "Hey, I introduced my self as Sam" and they would always politely correct themselves with a simple "//sorry, ignore last line" or such.

Now, I can completely understand the reasoning for why people would read those labels. I for one don't always memorize the way that all characters intrroduce themselves, and lets face it, most of of talk to at least 100 different characters. That's a lot of introductions to memorize, and frankly in a game it is a lot of work to make sure you have paid attention to everyone's introduction.

So, basically what I am trying to say is: It is annoying, but it makes sense. Just correct them OOC and for the most part people are cool with that.

As for meta-gaming dieties and alignments, yeah that's wrong. Unless of course they have the symbol on a shield or flag, then it only makes sense for a character to jump to conclusions.

I have a pretty good idea to remember names and nicknames, such as Koppig's Pig and others. I got awful memory, so I write down on my in-game journal the name (and nickname or false name in brackets) of everyone I meet. My monk has some pretty good memory for names with this, and I don't have to wonder if I know or not the person I'm talking with

[stragen]

A cleric puts his hand up.

Jin was talking to Arandwen when a dark cloaked figure walked by.  Arandwen said the word "Moonlight.." and ran off after the figure.  Jin started walking in the other direction.  Nothing unusual there.  He didn't know anyone called "Moonlight".  The last thing he heared as he left the area, (moved from Hlint to East Hlint) was:  Arandwen asking the hooded figured why when she walked past didn't say hello.  The figure replied. "The master doesn't acknowledge the slave in public.".  The word slave caught Jin's attention and he returned to East Hlint.  He listened to the conversation for a while until he realised that the dark robed figure was Ilsime.  

Jin didn't know that Moonlight was Ilsime.  I had only heard the name Ilsime before, and previously addressed her as such.  On the previous meetings with Ilsime, she had flirted with him and caused the young innocent Jin to blush and much his discomfort.  At the time she was wearing a dress.  Jin hadn't seen her Hooded.  Also as a player I didn't know the Ilsime had changed to be come a follower of Corath.  I didn't know this until I read this post.  I did see a post where Ilsime requested her alignment field be blanked.  Perhaps Jin should have known that Ilsime means moonlight in Elven.  However as a player I did not know this.  Perhaps, as a player I would have known this if I read Ilsime character development thread.  Is that information in there Ilsime?  A lack of meta-game information perhaps?   Jin was facinated by the name change and worried by the change in demeanor.  Slavery worried him deeply.

This is what promted the sense deity relations spell.  Jin was shocked to find that Aeridin was enemy to Ilsime's deity.  He still didn't suspect Corath, nor did he mention the word Corath.  

Jin left to follow a dwarf in need of aid on a quest, he was followed by Arandwen and by Moonlight.  The converastion continued outside benches in Hlint.

Also as a player I didn't know that Ilsime is neutral.  Furthermore the character Jin didn't know that Moonlight is neutral.  Jin merely reacted to the percieved darkness and agressiveness of the new Ilsime.  I think a cleric should react strongly to someone of an enemyed deity.  He didn't say she was evil.  He just kept trying to guide her towards Aeridin's light;  most unsuccessfully.  The conversation ended with Jin deciding to call Moonlight, Hope, in the Hope that she would return to the light, and Moonlight ignoring Jin.  Good roleplaying I thought.

What do I think about Meta Game information?  I think you need some to make the game playable.  Writing down names and nicknames of all the characters you meet is not much fun and can make the game a chore.  So I don't.  However I can mostly remember important nicknames, such as Moonlight (perhaps Hope from now on), Pig, Axo.  

Should the Journals be private, perhaps.  It would be a good idea for characters with shadey pasts.  However having a large BBS is what makes Layo different from other servers.  Perhaps it would be useful to give players the option of hiding their character development thread if they  wish to.  Of course you could just keep it all private on a word document on your own PC.  But where is the fun in that?

[Leanthar]

"....Should the Journals be private, perhaps. It would be a good idea for characters with shadey pasts. However having a large BBS is what makes Layo different from other servers. Perhaps it would be useful to give players the option of hiding their character development thread if they wish to. Of course you could just keep it all private on a word document on your own PC. But where is the fun in that?...."

Once we get a little more done in LORE (tons on our plates mind you) I do think this option could happen--likely it will be in the preferences for a given login name. But a forewarning on that--all GM's will still be able to see it, but it will be private from all players that are NOT marked as friends to you (in LORE).  Now... that is all just a guess... The coding will be up to OneST8.

[Nyralotep]

Now that sounds very interesting.  That would be very nice.

[xXDenizeNXx]

Jin
That sounds perfectly logical to me, I would be worried about a person that started to react in that way myself and ask questions. It sounds to me like Typically_Annoying has ASSUMED you were meta gaming because of people reading the name tag etc in the past, so maybeto annoying this was the percieved straw that broke the camels back. I suggest that you just send a few PM's on the forum here to each other and sort it out/make apologies w/e and then work out how this new development is going to effect your IC relationship anf then work out also how you can both get the maximum fun out of RP'ing it.
As a side note Geddrin also only knows Islime as such and not moonlight, whereas Dimmy my half giant knows her as moonlight (if he remembers even) or nice laydee, and denizen has never met her. Ged usually calls her lass anyways.

Moonlight
I am six to one half a dozen to the other with all this different names etc etc, yes we are in a RP world and yes ooc knowledge of dieties etc is a no no but the name tag thing is there isn't it? And like Harlas said there will be mistakes while that thing is above ya head cause peeps will go ummm whois this again? have i met them? oh bugger it well met Ilsime lass. I just see that as a way to do better RP, 'and how do you know me sir? have we met?' 'why no not formally but i heard your name being passed around the circle so to speak as a fine crafter of rings and amulets.'
And what would be wrong with that? i mean we log off for a certain amount of time per day, in the RP world they just don't go on off mode do they? I imagine they goto taverns, gossip and listen to gossip etc etc.
So ya playing devils advocate here as well, but pking someone is a little bit extreme IMO and punishment a tad harsh.

[OneST8]

That's almost exactly how I've envisioned the Player Journals to work in LORE. Friends can see dev threads and same with GMs with the option of making the journals public on a per-journal basis.

How far I go with it though soley depends on my available time as you've stated there is a lot already on my plate for LORE. Not that I mind! *grins* It's all very very cool stuff.

[freemen2]

This is great
heh heh Path will actually start writting things LoL

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

What would be even better, if it's possible, would be to allow the option of having people set as friends on LORE by default. Just the OPTION, mind you; the default setting would be as it is now, but a person would be able to set everyone as a friend.

No clue if I'm making sense.

But basically, this would allow those who don't care if others read (or actually want it to happen, like I do *SHAMELESS PLUG*) to let them, while still allowing those who don't specifically want others to read to keep thiers private.

Just hopping on to post a message somewhere else; this just caught my eye.

After this, I'm asleep.

[SuperMunch]

Just wondering, keeping a journal public will still be an option, right?

As I said above, I don't mind people reading it - most of the stuff is inane and Freldo wouldn't be upset if someone took it and read it - maybe Freida's already gone through it a few times, who knows?

[Deacon]

I agree that Meta-gaming is VERY bad, as I made a post about it not too long ago.  However, I'm not really sure if I like keeping the Character Journals private.  I personally like the option to go in and read other players' thoughts about their characters and stuff.  I agree that it would cut down on the amount of Meta-gaming, but I like to read it.  I also like others to read mine, which is one reason why I write it.

[Arandwen]

@Jin
I was there when this meeting took place, as you wrote. I was - like typically_annoying - surprised by the reactions of Jin to Isilme/moonlight. Maybe it is because I had seen her in her new dress for some days already, but I did not see the direct reason to cast the spell Jin was casting. Yes, she acted differently from before, and yes, she wears a hood, but then again, I found that many characters behave differently at times, and the hood... well it sometimes seems to become a fashion accessory - Arandwen has started to use it in Hlint as well at times. There might even be a good reason for wearing that, other than trying to look "dark". One thing that made it feel strange, was that even if Isilme is :turning: from good to neutral, she still :is: good - at least she was at the time of the meeting. The point I'm trying to make, is, that the situation as you described it might have triggered the behavior for Jin, but it felt weird for me at the time. After reading your comments, I'm sure this was just a misunderstanding.

I liked the part about Jin calling her Hope - even if Arandwen found it repulsing. I'm sure the last thing hasnt been said about that ;-)

About the jounals, I like reading them. They sometimes even help me understand things that happen IC that are for whatever reason hard to follow at the time - be it because of the language barrier, typing speed, other distractions or whatnot. I do my best to keep information that Arandwen doesnt know from my RP, but sometimes it just helps lessen the problems the NWN experience cause.

[Weeblie]

*looks around guilty when people mentions "random casting of divine relation"*

[egoober]

Heh,
  In Elladan's defense, can I say he has a almost notoriously bad memory for names, faces, and directions - just ask Bris or Ireth!
  Yes it can be hard sometimes to seperate IC from OOC knowledge, I will alwasys err on the side of Elladan not knowing if I have any doubts.
  Anyway, what are complaining about? It got you a free ale!
 
 

feniox - 3/3/2006  4:21 PM  I haven't read all of the replies, so apologies if I repeat something that has already been said.  Meta-gaming is the reason I stopped doing a character development thread once I had achieved my PRC, even though I wanted to continue it just for fun, because its just one more way people can learn things they shouldn't know. Having said that, there are ways that people can learn in-game about your character, without you yourself telling them, I know things about certain characters in game simply because I am friends with others who "keep tabs" on them, or similar.  Also, I don't think all meta-gaming is intentional, sometimes information just gets confused, such as the other days when I was talking to Elladan, and he was RPing that he had never met me, despite being on three quests together, simply because he thought he'd only known me OOC and wasn't sure if we'd met before. No, that isn't a meta-game of any kind, but its an example of how OOC and IC information can get easily crossed and cause confusion which results in a character knowing/remembering things that they should/shouldn't know (delete where applicable).  That's the main reason that I stopped reading character development threads too, I find it much easier to RP not knowing something about a character if I don't actually know myself, rather than reading it on the forum and then having to try and remember that I don't know certain things all the time.   That's the only solution I can think of really, is to just not read other people's development threads, or other things that you shouldn't know about such as "A note posted in elven" if you cant read elven.  

[feniox]

egoober - 3/4/2006  3:34 AM    Heh,
  In Elladan's defense, can I say he has a almost notoriously bad memory for names, faces, and directions - just ask Bris or Ireth!
  Yes it can be hard sometimes to seperate IC from OOC knowledge, I will alwasys err on the side of Elladan not knowing if I have any doubts.
  Anyway, what are complaining about? It got you a free ale!
   
 

 I'm greedy, I want more free ale!  Nah, I just mentioned it as it was the most recent exmaple I could think of to go with what I was saying

[egoober]

Don't worry, no offense was taken!
  Although re-reading my entry reminds me never to post to the forums on days when I started playing at 4am
  Privacy of the journals is a hard choice to make for the team. I, for one, get a great deal of enjoyment out of reading the threads. In my mind they help flesh out the world , and sometimes provide snippets of knowledge that my character should have, but his player does not. I know that when I first started here, they were a great help in getting a feel for the place. It would be a pity if that was lost, even if for a good cause.
  I think my personal preference would be for journals to be public, with authors having the option to make them private. A second best might be for them to be private, with players able to gain access via "friendship" as previously suggested. The downside of this is, of course, that it would no longer be possible to 'browse' the threads at random - a particular habit of mine!

[Eight-Bit]

It's nothing uncommon. All of my characters have something hidden that will eventually be found out. Like with Keille'leugh, her name is Key, yet her full name is known only to Ozymandias, Arestes, and Remiel. The two best ways to prevent meta-gaming are very easy, and very simple. Just keep track of who knows the important facts about your character, and keep your cool while sending a polite correction to the player who made the mistake. Not all meta-gaming is intentional. I know that I have a terrible memory when it comes to these things, and despite my best efforts and experience here roleplaying and elsewhere, I still make mistakes. We're human (except for IDii..). That's the fun of playing with other people, everything will always be imperfect and there will always be something to improve upon.

But it falls on you to correct the problem. Ask them calmly, and out of character, where they had learned this information. If the answer does not match up, call them on it, and ask them to correct whatever damage they have caused. It sometimes does require going out of character to do this, and the best way to do that is to either send a PM to the player, or make a polite ooc annoucement (not on Shout, of course.) after you have determined if their knowledge of your character does not match up, and instruct the players around you to disregard all that they've read. It really does ruin the immersive feel of Layonara when this has to be done, but I believe that the quality of our time truly will reflect on the quality of other player's time as well; and the best way to do that is to be happy with your character.

And finally, if all else fails, if it's not ment to be known, don't tell anyone. The easiest way to prevent metagaming above ALL other things is just not to release the information.