Skald broken wail dc calculation

[Hellblazer]

Alright, just to start off. I got the wind sucked out of me today when I made some math after reaching the mastery level of skald 5 today. And quite frankly i'm making this suggestion half heartily cause I know there is little chance it will be considered but still.

The situation is as follows.

I went with a group today in the great forest with my skald, after finally reaching level 20 and her skald 5. Long road, with many pauses due to many reasons. But yeah! I made it! you know?

So I'm all happy, I go with Flynn, Trenton and Yvale in the great forest. We rp a bit before we go. Then we start to buff ourselves and I boost her cha up to 32, the max she can get actually with her gear on and her nat 20 cha. To find out that well with her dc of 26 on broken wail, well they save with a +21. So anything from 5 and over and voila! they save.

Broken wail has a 10+skald level+cha mod dc setting. Since there is no way to gain more than 5 levels of skald.. well eh. You get very very limited.

That's point one.

Now for point two. I made some math about the ability I use the most in combat. Deafening chant. Turns out they save the same way +21. Well turns out that a second level ability Has a higher potential dc than the master skill of the level 5 skald. Yep that's right. See Deafening chant has a 10+1/2 character level+cha mod. Which means that at the current level of Sil. She gets a dc of 31. Fun part, is that well.. even with that kind of dc, well they save 90% of the time that I have tried it. Due to having a really high saving thorw.

From my perspective of things. Even if at level 40, I had taken all natural ability points and greater charisma feats on her epic feats selection. Her dc would still be of 43 for deafening chant vs a maximum save of 41 for these giants. And a maximum of 28 for her broken wail vs a save of 41 for the same giants.

Now, I don't know if all the higher challenge rating areas that I will be bound to face will be as hard as these ones, but logically that is what I should expect. It's not something I relish at the moment.

So I don't know. But with the changes that have been made due to caster over soloing areas and using mass kill spell. Maybe the way the skald abilities are calculated should be rethought, so they do not become a worthless class to be had.

I'm not looking for the much dreaded "automatic I win button" here. But for A class that has taken a very long time and much rp to get, to have a fighting chance.

[Dorganath]

First off, all suggestions are considered.  Whether we do anything about them is another matter.

There was actually a rather lengthy discussion on the balance of this ability and the Skald class as a whole. It was formerly a 10-level PrC, and it was changed to a 5-level PrC to give the class more of a "punch" and a relatively quick pay-off.

Regarding the ability itself, yes, it has a finite progression, but let's face it...it's instant death.  The LORE description calls it as breaking the will of a creature to live.  Given that's probably the most primal instinct (self-preservation) of any conscious living thing, it's a pretty powerful thing to do that by (effectively) shouting.  That's different from death magic, which is effectively stealing life force from a target (or targets).

So I don't know. But with the changes that have been made due to caster over soloing areas and using mass kill spell. Maybe the way the skald abilities are calculated should be rethought, so they do not become a worthless class to be had.

It's a little much to consider completely re-drawing the balance line for this one ability based on relatively minor changes made to two sets of creatures found only in one region in the whole of Layonara.  For the record, the changes were slight (as little as 1-2 points in some cases) and only to nudge them closer to being a reasonable challenge for the intended level ranges in both caster and melee builds.

This is off-topic, but it didn't bother me that mages soloed there, and if they continue to do so, then fine.  What I did have a problem with, and this is purely a matter of balance, is that a low-epic mage could go and literally click a button and 8 (or more) very high-CR giants could reliably drop instantly dead without the caster breaking a sweat, leaving behind all the epic XP, gold and loot in one nice fat package while a well-equipped melee build of equivalent level could hardly scratch the things.  So what I did is make it more of a fight for everyone. The overall balance was the picture there, not a matter of over-soloing by one character class.

[Hellblazer]

Thanks for the prompt response Dorg.

I'm just thinking here that for this ability, having it solely based on the skald level instead of the 1/2 character level, has a devastating impact on it's usefullness. When the prc was a level 10 prc, it made sense as you could easily have a dc of 30+, which helps. But since it's now a 5 level prc....

I'm okay with diversity and all. But still, I'm left to wonder about the areas where I have not been yet which are post epic. I can only imagine that the foes I will meet there will be even tougher than the one I am facing in the great forest. Kinda makes me wonder that if even at level 40 I will barely be able to use that ability there, what will it be with stronger foes? Kinda puts a downer on the whole thing.

[darkstorme]

My two cents:

I think this ability is on par, power-wise, with Quivering Palm.  The DC may be a bit lower (or perhaps not, given that CHA is a primary stat for Bards while Monks have to balance their WIS with various combat attributes), but Quivering Palm can be used only once a day, with a single target, as opposed to Broken Wail, which can be used multiple times a day and hits every opponent in a large area.

Skald, for a five-level prestige class, is very powerful.  And something like Wail of the Banshee (for example) isn't actually that much more powerful than Broken Wail - the DC from a Wizard casting Wail is 10 + 9 + the wizard's INT modifier (plus bonuses from the Spell Focus feats if they have them).  So the DC of the Wizard's spell, assuming an INT modifier equal to the Skald's CHA modifier, is 4 higher - but a 20th-level Wizard could only prepare four Wails in a day, while a 15 Bard/5 Skald with Extra Music would have seven uses of Broken Wail without using up a single spellslot.

Just as Wail is essentially useless against particularly powerful foes, so too would it make sense that Broken Wail would prove equally ineffective.

Again, just my two cents.

[lonnarin]

I still remember the days of the old 10-level skald.  Farros was the first one ever I think.  The very first time he got skald levels he was so excited, fully buffed, armored and hasted up he stormed the goblin hill near Hlint and let out a terrifying bellow.  He was so dreadful that not only every single goblin fled, but so did he!  Luckily Dorg fixed that fairly quick after I reported it.

As long as skalds don't deafen, blind, kill or terrify themselves and still get that sweet +1ab/lvl, I love em thus far.  Wail I mostly use for rogues and mages or lower lvl monsters.

[davidhoff]

Alright I have to say that Silvia came to the Deep with us and her songs did very well.  She was damaging things none of us could touch and killing many enemies with her wails.  She made an excellent compliment to the party.  *hands Silvia a freshly killed crow on a plate with a knife and fork*

[Hellblazer]

Yeah. I'm happy. I was somewhat afraid that she would be useless in the higher level areas, but still, the deep is not the biggest one. I guess it's touch and go and well see where that goes.

Although I did notice something peculiar. On some of the dark elfs, I noticed that some of them, even if they failed their fortitude check, they didn't die, and there was no message saying they were immune. I'll have to dig it out in my ubber huge log.

[Chazzler]

Yes, I have saw the "soul escape" visual occurring on some of the foes that did not go down. I don't think this is plainly a Skald Wail thingy, since I have seen that visual on surviving enemies when people are casting Weird or Wail of the Banshee which have the same visual on enemies.

[SteveMaurer]

The thing about the Skald ability is that it also works in no-magic areas.  I've noticed that Skalds do quite well in the Rift.   Also given the fact that it works against groups, you can expect that on average, at least one of the monsters will fail their DC.

To me, the class that simply has no future is Spellsword.  At the end of a 10 level progression, they get the ability to Imbue a weapon (so long as they are not in a NMZ when they do it) with a death DC of 17 pre-epic, 22 at 20-29 epic, 24 at 30-39, and a 26 at 40.    This ability only works if you manage to crit.  You can't use it on groups.  (There are other alternatives, but they are worse.)

And you're complaining about a DC of 26 at level 20?

[Hellblazer]

Well you forget one thing. Any enchanting that is done on a weapon will stay on the weapon as long as the caster doesn't rest and/or the time of the spells doesn't fade in a dmz.

Also, there is a big difference with a d8 (that increases to 2d6 when they hit imbue 3) enchantment on a sword, that will stay as long as described, vs an ability that is finite by the number of songs a skald has. Which by the way, the broken wail takes two songs to do.

Also, you have to realize that if you have a build that mixes spell sword who has a secondary ab, with a bard (again secondary) and a fighter (primary) then you will have a ab high enough to actually hit and do most of the dmg with the extra enchanting you can add. Considering that a spell sword can cast multiple type of enchantment on a weapon, that is a lot better than a dc set by cha. I have no clue where you have taken the death dc, but that is not a spell sword. You may be thinking of assassin there.

This also is interesting for the spell sword from lore:
Spellswords gain one caster level every other level after the first (respectively at 1,3,5,7,9) gaining all benefits of durations and improved spellcasting, but not any other benefits from their spellcasting class.

Skald do not.

So really there is no comparison that can be made there.

Of course in the rift she does well against the non combatant things. Not all mind you as some seems to simply be immune or it maybe that's just a bug. But the rift is an area of 12+ If I remember right. So ofcourse at 20.. with a good enough cha, vs foes that have low fort save, she will do averagely.

And yes, I do wine about a dc of 26 when you think that most of what she will face (cause truly.. who only hunts in the deep?) have been nerfed enough that it makes her abilities useless? In certain areas of course, but at her level and levels of those I travel with. Those are the areas that are used the most by the player base anyways. I can only Imagine going to fort of kings.. level 35+ cr of monsters.. geeee. Anyhow, as many things, you make due with what you have.

[SteveMaurer]

Well you forget one thing. Any enchanting that is done on a weapon will stay on the weapon as long as the caster doesn't rest and/or the time of the spells doesn't fade in a dmz.

I didn't forget that.  It is certainly possible for a Spellsword to enchant their weapon prior to going into a dmz.   This is almost exactly equivalent to the Flame Weapon/Darkfire spell, except not as flexible as they are, and lower damage than the spell at most levels.

(One question I really don't know the answer to - do imbue, flame weapon, and enchantments all stack?)

Again, I really want to understand the complaint.   Do you expect to solo the Rift or the Deep?   Only the truly unbalanced CODzilla classes, Cleric and Druid, possibly mixed with fighter, have any reasonable expectation of even attempting that.   For the rest of us, we have to go in large mixed groups, in which the main technique appears to be that the spellcasters buff the fighters, and than stand helplessly back because they can do little else.  (The monsters in these areas have spell immunities slathered on them, making it just about impossible to kill anything with magic; a magician with a maxed-out spell DC can do little, a more balanced magician with a decent STR does much better.)

To me, the ranking of PC class power by which type is most likely to survive soloing, is simply wrong.  Everything, in higher levels, are subject to group dynamics.   In other words, I judge PC power like this:

1] Is your PC coming along on a difficult run a charity case?  Or does your PC actually have something to add, and will be missed if you die?

2] Is your PC vulnerable to insta-death?  (Darthi just lost her third DT standing far away from combat, from a 110 point bolt of fire, thrown by something which I didn't even know attacked that way.)

3] Is your PC friendly enough to immediately join up with companions they don't know well?

4] Is it obvious that your PC is powering up the group?


Judged this way, Bards really aren't half bad.  Their songs really do help, turning difficult battles into easy ones.  They're not minned out on HP like wizards/sorcerers are (though nowhere near as good as CODzillas), and generally have no problems joining groups with different ideologies (as CODzillas should be played in-game, but typically aren't).   About the only way they fail is that people don't typically notice just how important their buffs are - the song that gave +10 in Spellcraft that just added a +2 to all Spell Saves that then just kept the fighter from being killed by the death spell isn't even noticed, whereas the explicit buffing by the mages beforehand is.

To me, the Skald class just gives bards one more attack option, plus adding a no-so-bad Primary BAB progression.    In fact, the only suggestion I would make wouldn't be to toy with the Wail DC at all, but instead simply allow PCs to continue to gain levels in Skald past level 5 (with maybe some extra feats from a skald feat list thrown in).

[Dorganath]

I didn't forget that.  It is certainly possible for a Spellsword to enchant their weapon prior to going into a dmz.   This is almost exactly equivalent to the Flame Weapon/Darkfire spell, except not as flexible as they are, and lower damage than the spell at most levels.

(One question I really don't know the answer to - do imbue, flame weapon, and enchantments all stack?)

Spellsword Imbue durations are also shorter on average than those weapon buffs.

And yes, Imbue does stack with Flame Weapon/Darkfire.

[Hellblazer]

Adding more skald level, would in fact change the dc as the dc is based on levels and also cha. So one or the other does exactly the same. Whether you change the broken wail to account for half the character class, or you add more skald level, it would end up the same, and that is what I would like. A way for my char who worked very hard to gain mastery of her skaldic abilities, to be able to do more with them. Not solo, heck I don't like soloing, I only do it with one char if he needs some cnr. But for trips and rp, nothing beats having people to play with.

Two things I would like to see for the skald. That the dc is calculated on half the character level, like terrifying bellow is. And that the skald levels adds a song per level, like undead slayer, spell sword and sacred fist do for spell levels when they reach the natural 2 level progression much like the base casting class would.

[Dorganath]

Skald used to be a 10-level PrC, but it was reduced to a 5-level PrC a few years ago.  The intent and balance was to give it "punch", which it has.  It is, as has been described, another set of options for a bard, but it is not meant for long progressions.

[SteveMaurer]

As a side note, I think I've just argued myself out of having (noname) take Spellsword levels.   I'm more than happy playing suboptimal classes, but some things like SS and MAS are just absurd.

[Hellblazer]

I'm sorry to say that I don't really see the actual punch that you are describing. When you have an ability that is solely based on the class level plus cha mod, compared to the other abilities that are character level based and cha mod. It's like saying to a kun fu master that the last technic he has learned is twice less powerful than what he has learned when he started. Now I know it's a mass death spell and all. But all the other abilities are also mass targets abilities.

Heck not saying that skalds should be able to run around and yelling once killing everything, but when you go down some places and out of 30 foes you will meet you down only 1 by luck, there is a huge gap there.

How about just adding the additional songs for each level the skald gets? At least it would give them extra tries to get those abilities to work. Just the extra song, not changing the duration, or making the song hand out more bonuses. But like the ss, uds and sf, the give new spells, but don't extend the duration of the spells andr doesn't make the spells more powerful.

[Dorganath]

I'm speaking of the PrC as a whole, not just Broken Wail.  The Skald class is intended to punch up the Bard class with the raw power of sound and a magic-fueled voice.  Because Broken Wail is a pretty large area of effect and it can potentially be used far more times than a wizard/sorc fully loaded with something like PWK, the balance is in the limited progression of the DC.

[jadewillow]

Thanks for raising this Hellblazer. My personal opinion having played Flynn for over almost three years is that the updated Skald is a big improvement over the old one. It really helps level set an otherwise languishing Bard. I think Dorg's comments on area of effect and number of times it can be used should be taken into consideration and as a result may justify a slightly lower DC. Since it is based off CHR is still can scale with level. Check my calculations, but by level 30 you should be able to get a 30 natural CHR. 42 buffed would give you 31 DC for Wail. Not bad if you ask me.

However, I do agree with you that the Great Forest is now inaccessible for a Skald of appropriate level. +20 on all Will saves kills 3/5 of the Skald repertoire. Going in there wailing is just about suicide, and with the latest update to Bleed, a Skald has no business up there alone. Perhaps an alternative would be to change one of the Will songs to reflex or fort. That might give the Skald a chance up there and round the class out a bit.

While we are ranting about Bards & Skalds, another area that has been grossly ignored are the horns. The first two are great. Just right balance wise and create some fun RP. The second two are worthless and need a severe overhaul.

Just my two cents

BTW, the Skald class does add to a Bard's song level, but just not add additional songs.

[Hellblazer]

Perhaps an alternative would be to change one of the Will songs to reflex or fort. That might give the Skald a chance up there and round the class out a bit.

Broken wail is a fort save song, and that where the problem lies, sort of. Both will and fort of the giants and mostly anything there, is ludicrously high. Fort save of the giants are 21. Will 21 also. I'm not sure for the trolocs or the genassi, I haven't taken the time to look at my logs. But they are as hard to kill as the giants.

Hmm I never saw the information that the skald adds to the power of the song of a bard. Can you link me so I can see that please?

[jadewillow]

I have not seen it documented, just know Flynn's song is level 23.